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Dwarf Noob: Was This A Good Deal?

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#1 Briefcase

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:41 PM

So, I recently bought an army of dwarfs since I've been getting into warhammer with my pals this past 6 months or so. Until now, I've always piggy backed off of a friend who owns 3 armies -Deamons, VC, and TK. Anyways, I was getting a little bored of all of those armies, and I always wanted to get into dwarfs.

So, I went internet browsing, and to my dismay I couldn't find anything that I thought was reasonable.. probably because I'm a poor student and I wasn't willing to pay even half price for models... yeah.... I'm that cheap.

Anyways, long story short, I found someone selling his dwarf army and I snapped it up. I just wanna know what you guys think of the purchase and maybe give me some small pointers on what I should be fielding.

On the fielding tips, I should note that we play with 7th edition rules... I'm not really certain why we do, but that's the environment that i grew up in, and the main friend who played was vehemently against 8th edition.

-On that note, is 8th edition worse? Better? What are your guys' thoughts on that one?

Without further ado, my purchase:

Warmachines:
-Thorek Ironbrow and Anvil of Doom (metal)
-2 Gyrocopters (metal)
-Flame Cannon with crew (metal)
-Grudge Thrower with crew (metal)
-2 Bolt Throwers with crew (metal)
-Organ gun with crew (plastic)
-2 cannons with crew (plastic)

Units:
-20 Thunderers with command (plastic)
-14 miners (plastic)
-30 Ironbreakers with command (metal, about 25 models painted)
-18 Hammerers with command (metal)
-36 Slayers with command (metal, about 25 models painted)
-60 Warriors with command (30 plastic/30 metal)
-30 Longbeards with command (metal)
-22 Crossbowmen with command (metal)

Characters:
-General on shield with carriers (metal and painted)
-Master Engineer (metal)

Came to be 300$ flat...



#2 Targ Ironfist

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:51 PM

Sounds like a GREAT deal. If those metal ones are OOP minis, some people would pay a lot for these.

Only thing you are missing is more hammerers, but otherwise a VERY solid throng.


8th edition: Besides the magic being sometimes a bit unbalanced (certain armies and IF bombing), this edition rocks!
Good luck and welcome in the brotherhood! :buba:

#3 Briefcase

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:30 AM

Would you say 8th is better than 7th? I've never played 8th and my only experience with it is reading newer army books/the rulebook, and my friend hating on it all the time. Which is better?

#4 Swordthain

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:13 AM

8th edition is mostly better. The rules seem to flow a bit better, and they seem somewhat more intuitive overall. There are still problems (especially the magic seems to need some more work), but I think it's a substantial improvement on the whole.

And, yeah, that was a great deal the OP got! I have to say I'm a bit jealous!

#5 the bearded one

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:01 AM

You got a terrific deal mate. The plastics alone would cost you about 2/3s of that price if you bought them new, let alone these gigantic piles of metals.


On 7th vs 8th, well.. I'm a firm proponent of 8th, and I shall tell you why. Sit down, young 'un, while I recount my wisdom..

ahem * clears throat *

7th was one of the worst things to have happened to fantasy in decades.

There it is. Not joking, not raging (not a lot, anyway), but 7th edition, at least with all the 7th edition armybooks, was a gigantic nightmare. If your friend who rages against 8th is the one who owns daemons and VC, then it's no suprise he prefers 7th, because in 7th those armies were absolfrikinglutely the king. Nearly half the other armies wouldn't really need to bother setting up, as they'd lose anyway. The daemon armybook was so grossly overpowered that it ruined the edition all by itself and gave it's writer Mat Ward a bad reputation untill this day. 8th brought balance back to the game. Armies because closer in terms of power and every army had a pretty decent chance to win against others. In 7th edition I could not have seen an ogre player go toe to toe with a daemon player, like I did in 8th (and that was before they got their 8th edition book). You would have seen a big streak of blood across the table instead, with little bits of ogre scattered around it.

In fact, when I tell people new to the game about 'how it used to be in 7th edition', they find it hard to believe. How could you ever have fun that way, they wonder. In 7th edition units of 5-6 cavalry can without failing charge an infantry unit, slaughter the front rank and get not hits in return, and then run down 20+ infantry. So if you are going to continue playing under the 7th edition rules I suggest you put every combat unit on the shelf apart from 2-3 units of warriors with shields, and take a gunline from hell, to just shoot at the enemy. You won't be getting the charge on them anyway and charging generally equalled winning the combat.

In contrast in 8th edition the charges become random distances (movement +2D6"), but importance of the charge is lessened as well. Units now fight in 2 ranks instead of 1, and the highest initiative strikes first and casualties are removed from the back. really removed from the back, not just for convenience. Therefor the enemy is allowed to strike back with his full 2 front ranks as well, allowing for a combat to actually be a combat, instead of one person rolling 5 attacks before the other rolls 2-3 back. The smallest combats involve about 10 attacks per side, but will easily go to 30 or 40, ensuring the dice average out a bit and you're not screwed just because your 5 dice rolled a bit low. Units can attack in 3 ranks if they are deployed 10 wide. Because you are always allowed to strike back great weapons have become the dwarven weapon of choice. We weather the enemy storm as always (we're slow anyway, so always striking last due to great weapons hardly matters) and then carve bloody murder through the enemy with strenght 5-6.

Magic is a bit more touchy subject. The spells from the big rulebook became far more powerful, though in balance some other changes occured. No longer do wizards generate a set pool. You roll 2D6, that's the number of powerdice you get. Your opponent gets the highest D6 as dispeldice, to ensure he is not very far behind. Wizards can generate additional power/dispeldice if they roll a 6. Wizards with higher wizardlevels now get better at casting. A level 4 wizard for example adds +4 to his casting roll, a lvl3 adds +3 etc. and when dispelling you can assign a wizard who adds his wizardlevel to the dispelrol. Dwarfs always get +2 to dispel (but not 2 extra dispeldice anymore). There are 2 major balancing factors to the system: first, when you fail to cast a spell (by not reaching the casting value, or rolling a total on your casting attempt of less than 3, you "break concentration", meaning the wizard can't cast or dispel for the remained of that phase. Also if you roll double 6's, you get irresistible force as usual, but a miscast at the same time, which can be quite nasty. Results on the miscast table now vary from a large str10 template and the removal of the wizard on a 1, 2 or 3, to losing D3 wizardlevels. What I like about the system is that you won't have powerpools of 12-13 dice against a dispel pool of 3 or 4 anymore, they are relatively equal and won't become too big.

Another point in favour for 8th is that dwarfs became very, very competitive.

Edited by the bearded one, 20 December 2011 - 02:03 AM.


#6 Swordthain

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:11 AM

That is one thing I think they did right with the magic in 8th edition: 2D6 power dice, highest die for dispel dice. I do approve. Now, if they could rework IF...

#7 the bearded one

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:17 AM

By the way, there's always a risk when staying behind and playing an older edition; you're not getting support for it anymore, and new armybooks, supplements and games are written for 8th edition, which can cause substantial headaches.

#8 Dr. Cheesesteak

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:26 AM

Dwarfs always get +2 to dispel (but not 2 extra dispeldice anymore).

Was that a Dwarf trait in BRB in 7th? Or are you talking about the Runelord rule? B/c I still add 2 extra dispell dice when I take a Runelord...

#9 Swordthain

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:03 AM

No, that was the Dwarf special rule. If you had a Dwarf army, you automatically added +2 DD to your pool, even if you didn't bring any Runelords or Runesmiths. I remember really being miffed at first when they changed that for 8th edition, but now I really don't mind: the +2 to dispel attempts is really nice, too, and most of the time I even prefer it!

#10 Berk

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:39 AM

I had a SoM game at the local GW a few weeks ago, pure carnage, but a lot of fun, but we had one round where we ended up with more dispel dice than the opponent had magic dice thanks to 2 Runelords, and the opponent rolling a 4 and a 1. :D

#11 the bearded one

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:26 PM

Storm of magic works with 4D6 powerdice, actually (and you get the 2 highest).

#12 theorox

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:23 PM

Would you say 8th is better than 7th? I've never played 8th and my only experience with it is reading newer army books/the rulebook, and my friend hating on it all the time. Which is better?


8th is much much better IMO. Ask your friend why he dislikes it. 7th was all about movement and being able to eyeball 1/4 of an inch. If you charged, you won. Almost always. Stupid. It doesn't matter to me what people play, but if you want my opinion you'd better get into 8th edition as 7th edtion players are few and far between. Cavalry armies and "The big three" ruled (and ruined) the game completely.

Also, when the new Dwarf book and saucy models come out you won't be able to use them...and congratulations on the great deal!

That being said, welcome to Warhammer and Dwarfs, wichever version you play! :)

Theo

#13 GreenDwarf

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:50 PM

Like Theo mentioned, 8th is nothing if not the practical choice as by this time most players are using the current rules. Fortunately the great deal of models you purchased should make for a versatile force that functions well in this edition. Congrats on the score and welcome to the ranks of Grungni's finest!

#14 Dourin

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:10 PM

That was a brilliant deal mate and a goodsized throng to get into the game with.

Also, welcome to the forums. :)

Regards,

Dourin

#15 Briefcase

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 07:26 PM

Thanks for the welcomes everyone! I'm reading up on 8th as we speak, trying to convince my friends to give it a whirl. See... we're starting a campaign, big, risk style type thing, and it's going to have lizardmen, orcs, high elves, and me playing dwarfs. Any of those armies way too strong? No VC or deamons this time round, so I figured if I'm forced to 7th, that I'll still be ok.

I've got a friend who's reluctant because he dislikes random charging,,, anything I can tell him to ease his thoughts on that?

#16 the bearded one

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 07:49 PM

Random charges was one of the changes that shocked people a bit, but it was fairly easy to make the transition. See, in 7th the charge is pretty much everything. Getting the charge is really, really important. Therefore the idea of random distance charges definately sounds like a scary thing because a low roll from you, or a high roll if your opponent is charging can see you losing the oppertunity to get the charge. However the fact is that charging itself is not particularly important in 8th. It grants +1 combat resolution and bonusses for lances and spears on cavalry, but that's pretty much it. The important thing is simply getting into combats you want, so a failed charge is not a particularly big deal.

Also charges are not entirely random as a decent player can get to positions where if he would want to charge he would not need to roll particularly high (oh, and note that in 8th you may measure all distances all the time, no more guessing of ranges. You may measure everything whenever you want). Charges are movement + 2D6, so you can at least get a rough idea of what you'd averagely roll. movement 4 troops have about a 50/50 chance to make an 11" charge for example, and charges where you need to roll 9+ or so are not to be relied on, whereas a charge where you need to roll 4 or 5 is almost guaranteed. Cavalry and flyers are also still significantly faster and have far better odds of making longer charges. Cavalry and flyers roll 3D6 and use the highest 2, and flyers count their movement as 10 when charging (so they roll 10 + 3D6 (of which the highest 2 D6) ) .

With lizardmen, orcs, high elves and dwarfs you are decently balanced, although lizardmen and possibly high elves are going to have quite a significant edge. Is the O&G player using the 7th or 8th edition book?
I would recommend giving 8th edition a try for a simple game, or maybe go to the local GW or something and maybe ask for an introductory 8th edition game.


For me the fun part of 8th edition is the fact that infantry works. It has become feasable to put down blocks of troops, instead of an army of 5-man units of cavalry and 10 elite infantry. Battles are now battles, not skirmishes. Also movement is far more streamlined. I remember in 7th edition that movement phases could take quite a while as the other player took a few minutes to think it over (while I stood still with my army castled in a corner or on a hilltop.. I couldn't charge anyway so why bother moving?), while they go so much faster in 8th. 7th is a bit more like playing a game of tabletop chess (and white is totally overpowered), 8th is a fun beer&prezzels game.




One more change I like to add: How often do you see combats that last more than 1 turn of fighting before one side breaks and runs away? In 8th edition if you lose but have more ranks than your enemy, you are "steadfast", which means that you can make the breaktest as if you are stubborn, so on unmodified leadership. This allows a unit far larger than their opponent but that gets a clobbering in combat (and 8th edition battles are really bloody), to avoid having to roll snake-eyes to stay standing. Instead their superior numbers finally grant them an advantage and allow them to hold their position.


Some help to convince the players of those armies:
- Lizardmen
will like 8th edition. Skinks may march (!) and shoot, slann are possibly the most powerful non-special character wizards in the game, saurus are great in combat, salamanders are just glorious (no more 4+ partials. If something is touched by the template, even just a corner, it is hit) and stegadons can really stampede over enemy infantry (against infantry at the end of a round of combat monsters inflict D6 automatic hits at their basic strenght. This is called a thunderstomp.)

- High elves will like 8th edition. They have high initiative and always strike first, and if you have initiative equal or higher than your opponent in conjunction with ASF, then the model may reroll failed rolls to hit. Imagine it, a unit of swordmasters or white lions rerolling everything they missed!

- Orcs&Goblins will like 8th edition. They can now make use of their superior numbers by throwing out numerous attacks. With so much infantry units, they love it. Waaagh!

- Dwarfs will like 8th edition. Warmachines like cannons and grudge throwers have become very accurate because guessranges are removed. Also we've become very good at combat.


I hope you manage to convince them. 8th edition is one of the best improvements the game has ever had. Sure, there are some hick-ups here and there, but in general it is a vast improvement.

Edited by the bearded one, 20 December 2011 - 08:03 PM.


#17 Dolgrim Brassbottom

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:42 PM

Not playing 8th is crazy talk

#18 Dr. Cheesesteak

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:56 PM

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by all the praise of 8th Ed (and w/o any Dwarf bias). When I first got in to Fantasy this past summer, I mostly heard negative opinions about 8th - mostly about Magic being way too OP'd. But the more and more I read forums and such, I learned 8th Ed is what made Fantasy for the reason I love it - balance! Hopefully 8th Ed lasts for a long time...

#19 Impy

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:15 PM

Any time a new edition for a game comes out, you're going to see a lot of grumbling right off the bat. I think, with the vantage of time, most people have come around to the positives. (Especially as the new 8th edition army books have come out. They've been widely recognized as balanced and fun books, with little of the "power creep" visible in other games/editions.)

#20 Targ Ironfist

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:03 AM

I am in the business from the end of 4th edition. Outside of 7th (which is only a 6th edition remake) I played them all. Quit because of the stupid rules before and came back because of the reasonability of 8th.

Not playing 8th and pronouncing virtues of 7th is a bit weird.

Otherwise read TBO´s thorough post. You have it there. :drinks:





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