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Reimagining The Warhammer Dwarfs - Input Welcomed!


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#21 Thoric

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Posted 09 May 2020 - 08:58 PM

Hail, Dwarf-brothers!

The problem is not how Dwarfs works in the 8th edition. The problem IS the 8th edition in itself. It changed deeply the nature of Warhammer respect to all the previous 7 editions. Too much is entrusted to dices (the rules on the charge are ridicoluos). Everything is done to multiply the number of attacks. It is really a poo poo, for not using other words. The perfect edition of Warhammer, was the 6th. And this is not a coincidence. Gav Thorp and Alessio Cavatore worked with just one idea on their mind, when they created it: BALANCE. It was the perfectly balanced edition. From the point of view of the Rulebook and from the point of view of the Army books. About Dwarfs the army book of 2005 was perfect. Nothing to add, remove or change.

#22 Zidane_blade

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Posted 10 May 2020 - 03:24 AM

Hail, Dwarf-brothers!

The problem is not how Dwarfs works in the 8th edition. The problem IS the 8th edition in itself. It changed deeply the nature of Warhammer respect yo all the previous 7 editions. Too much is entrusted to dices (the rules on the charge are ridicoluos). Everything is done to multiply the number of attacks. It is really a poo poo, for not using other words. The perfect edition of Warhammer, was the 6th. And this is not a coincidence. Gav Thorp and Alessio Cavatore worked with just one idea, when they created it: BALANCE. It was the perfectly balanced edition. From the point of view of the Rulebook and from the point of view of the Army books. About Dwarfs the srmu book of 2005 was perfect. Nothing to add, remove or change.


Just a heads-up, this thread is not about preferences of editions, but how you would see the dwarfs play on the battlefield with new and inventive rules.

In case it goes too much into edition bashing 😁

#23 SvenIronhand

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 03:37 PM

 

I would keep the shield wall, but make the Dwarfs very good at close-range shooting with javelins, throwing axes, and the like. The basic Dwarf Warrior or Longbeard could trade out his hand weapon and shield for a overly long pike. Or alternatively, they could take great weapons. I would make the pike Dwarfs slower than the other Dwarfs, to represent the ordered formation of the former and the wild charges of the latter. 

The Slayer equivalents would fight in nothing but a loincloth. This would make them "soft", but they would have good morale and be faster than the Dwarf Warriors in their suits of mail. 

 

I would replace the artillery with chariots - pulled by boars, of course. These would be manned by a driver and a bow-dwarf. In addition, they would have the option to take spiked wheels. 

As for magic, they would be what we call shamans. 

Throwing axes and javelins feels dwarfish to me, so more access to those kinds of weapons would be cool. Chariots also feels dwarfish, like a sturdy war platform pulled by boars as stubborn as the dwarfs ontop. 
For these more tribal-esque dwarfs shamans would be a nice fit also, what kinds of lores would they have access to? Or would they be using bound spells?

I suppose they would be using the Lore of Life, seeing as these are shamans in touch with nature. Or alternatively, they could be drawing power from the Ancestors, which could be a lore in of itself.



#24 Turgin Ironbeard

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 09:00 PM

 

 

I would keep the shield wall, but make the Dwarfs very good at close-range shooting with javelins, throwing axes, and the like. The basic Dwarf Warrior or Longbeard could trade out his hand weapon and shield for a overly long pike. Or alternatively, they could take great weapons. I would make the pike Dwarfs slower than the other Dwarfs, to represent the ordered formation of the former and the wild charges of the latter. 

The Slayer equivalents would fight in nothing but a loincloth. This would make them "soft", but they would have good morale and be faster than the Dwarf Warriors in their suits of mail. 

 

I would replace the artillery with chariots - pulled by boars, of course. These would be manned by a driver and a bow-dwarf. In addition, they would have the option to take spiked wheels. 

As for magic, they would be what we call shamans. 

Throwing axes and javelins feels dwarfish to me, so more access to those kinds of weapons would be cool. Chariots also feels dwarfish, like a sturdy war platform pulled by boars as stubborn as the dwarfs ontop. 
For these more tribal-esque dwarfs shamans would be a nice fit also, what kinds of lores would they have access to? Or would they be using bound spells?

I suppose they would be using the Lore of Life, seeing as these are shamans in touch with nature. Or alternatively, they could be drawing power from the Ancestors, which could be a lore in of itself.

 

 

I have to ask, why not consider both?

 

Lore of Life for healing, Lore of Ancestry for a unique and possibly very interesting clutch method to boost, buff, supplement and otherwise improve many vast aspects of the army.

 

Different Ancestors, such as Grungni, Grimnir, Valaya, and any others could be either combined, or parsed out. Pick say two each to make a lore of six choices.

 

Lore of Grungni: Gromril - cast 9+? The Shaman retells the tale of when Grungni first developed Runesmithing. By successfully casting this Lore spell, the Dwarf army as a whole gains +1 Armor Save. Models with Gromril armor additionally must choose to reroll failed armor saves.

 

Lore of Grungni: Smithing - Cast 8+? The Shaman recalls how Grungni invented Dwarfen smithing in all its forms. The Dwarf Army gains +1 to Hit and +1 AP value, or instead improves its S value that turn by +1.

 

Lore of Grimnir: War - Cast 7+? The Shaman reclaims the story of how Grimnir only died when it was finally his time. Doing so grants the Dwarf army across all units Fearless. Units already Fearless lose the quality whereby spare saves unsaved result in further casualties; no additional models are lost if they otherwise would be at the end of the turn.

 

Lore of Grimnir: Slayer - Cast 6+? The Shaman recites the tale of how Grimnir led the Dwarfs to victory long enough against the Chaos forces to buy time for the rest of the world to develop. The entire army gains Preferred Enemy: Daemons. Or, alternatively, the army can reroll failed to hit rolls against all Daemons, no matter the type.

 

Lore of Valaya: Hearth - Cast 5+? The Shaman returns to the Dwarfs the wild tale of how Valaya was the peaceful and benevolent Dwarf leader of the Council of Elders of her time, in her hold. After doing so, the Shaman grants the army the ability to ignore one total calculated penalty to their Leadership score before having to roll. Casualties of -10 or more that will result in success only on a 2+ are the most likely choice to remove.

 

Lore of Valaya: Home - Cast 4+? The Shaman revives the story of how Valaya is always the Dwarfs patron mother deity. Dwarfs units that must flee may march instead.



#25 Turgin Ironbeard

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 03:50 PM

Should I step out of the thread?

 

Or am I good to continue offering hopefully cogent ideas?



#26 Zidane_blade

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 05:06 PM

Should I step out of the thread?

Or am I good to continue offering hopefully cogent ideas?


I cant see why not 🙂

#27 Kallstrom

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 05:28 PM

Feel free to contribute! I chip in from time to time. If we can keep this thread buzzing with ideas and discussion then all the better. :)



#28 Turgin Ironbeard

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 10:18 PM

Alright.

 

If I please may, any feedback on the Lore of Ancestors?

 

http://www.bugmansbr...comed/?p=550923



#29 Kallstrom

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 11:04 AM

Lore of Life for healing, Lore of Ancestry for a unique and possibly very interesting clutch method to boost, buff, supplement and otherwise improve many vast aspects of the army.

 

Different Ancestors, such as Grungni, Grimnir, Valaya, and any others could be either combined, or parsed out. Pick say two each to make a lore of six choices.

 

Lore of Grungni: Gromril - cast 9+? The Shaman retells the tale of when Grungni first developed Runesmithing. By successfully casting this Lore spell, the Dwarf army as a whole gains +1 Armor Save. Models with Gromril armor additionally must choose to reroll failed armor saves.

 

Lore of Grungni: Smithing - Cast 8+? The Shaman recalls how Grungni invented Dwarfen smithing in all its forms. The Dwarf Army gains +1 to Hit and +1 AP value, or instead improves its S value that turn by +1.

 

Lore of Grimnir: War - Cast 7+? The Shaman reclaims the story of how Grimnir only died when it was finally his time. Doing so grants the Dwarf army across all units Fearless. Units already Fearless lose the quality whereby spare saves unsaved result in further casualties; no additional models are lost if they otherwise would be at the end of the turn.

 

Lore of Grimnir: Slayer - Cast 6+? The Shaman recites the tale of how Grimnir led the Dwarfs to victory long enough against the Chaos forces to buy time for the rest of the world to develop. The entire army gains Preferred Enemy: Daemons. Or, alternatively, the army can reroll failed to hit rolls against all Daemons, no matter the type.

 

Lore of Valaya: Hearth - Cast 5+? The Shaman returns to the Dwarfs the wild tale of how Valaya was the peaceful and benevolent Dwarf leader of the Council of Elders of her time, in her hold. After doing so, the Shaman grants the army the ability to ignore one total calculated penalty to their Leadership score before having to roll. Casualties of -10 or more that will result in success only on a 2+ are the most likely choice to remove.

 

Lore of Valaya: Home - Cast 4+? The Shaman revives the story of how Valaya is always the Dwarfs patron mother deity. Dwarfs units that must flee may march instead.

 

Nice to see that you made a whole lore! Personally I think reciting a whole tale might be hard to do in the midst of battle, but I like that they have their personal way of inspiring the army! :) 

So this is my conclusion of your spells, if I understood it correctly!
 

Lore of Grungni

  • Armywide +1 Armor bonus, plus rerolled armor saves for gromril armored dwarfs:
  • +1 to Hit and +1AP (or +1 Str):

Lore of Grimnir

  • Armywide fearless (I did not understand the latter part of the spell?):
  • Preferred enemy (Daemons), or reroll to Hit against Daemons:

Lore of Valaya

  • Negates leadership penalties for one leadership test (basically a better Stubborn?):
  • Must march instead of fleeing (I don't understand this, could you describe it a bit more?):

My comments:
 

Lore of Grungni seems straightforward and dwarfish to me. I like the idea of rerolling armor saves!
The + to Hit I would restrict to close combat only to make the dwarfs more eager to get into combat. 

Lore of Grimnir seems fluffy! With dwarfs already having such good Leadership they might not be in need for fearless (which is immune to fear, I reckon?). The daemon-specific spell might be too tailored towards fighting only one kind of enemy for it to take up a whole spell slot in the lore, but that is just my opinion. 

Lore of Valaya's leadership buff seems nice, it is cool to have something that could make a Stubborn unit even more stubborn (like a unit of Hammerers being under a leadership debuff, but still staying true to their original leadership stat). 
I don't understand the description of the other Valaya spell.. could you clarify it somehow?
 



#30 Turgin Ironbeard

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 03:36 PM

A few things.

 

It's One Lore, sorry about not being clear.

 

The Lore of The Ancestors has six total songs, two each to the three First Dwarfs.

 

The two for Grungni have to do with smithing, clear enough.

The two for Grimnir are battle related.

The two for Valaya are survival and protection.

 

For Valaya, the March rather than flee is, rather than 1 or 2d6, it is automatically 9" move. (4 inch move base, x 2 for march, +1 for Dwarf Marching bonus.)

 

For the Grungni stuff, the first one is sensible, and reflects Dwarfish reliance upon and deeprooted ancestral understanding of Gromril. The reroll saves part would also mean that Hammerer's would have Gromril Siege Armor, or with Gr Hvy and Gr Siege, a 1+ max. (6 Light, 5 Hvy, 4 Siege, 3 Full Siege, 2 Gr Hvy, 1 Gr Full Siege.)

 

The +1 to hit should have been listed as Melee only. Most Dwarfs don't have war bows yet, the steel metal bars that are nocked for a string yet. I haven't figured out how to best make those on the WHFB rules yet.

 

The Valaya section of the Ancestral Lore is meant to mainly convey Safety. Either 'Keep to yer oaths, and they'll keep you.' Or, 'Get home and yer safe.' On the battlefield, this is the one listed. As above, rather than flee, the unit need only roll 1d6 to break away and then marches 9" rather than roll dice.



#31 Kallstrom

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Posted 20 May 2020 - 07:22 AM

Ah, that I understood. One dwarf lore with the three gods combined. I like that they cover different aspects of dwarf life and psychology. 

For the Valaya spell regarding marching - I think that building spells around losing combat can work overall to some extent (like making a unit Stubborn, as a defensive buff for sticking around combat a little longer), but a spell for when you actually lose And break could be a little too specific and maybe not a spell you want to build your army list around. Fleeing 9" (a march move) could also be worse than actually rolling the flee dice with 2D6 and rolling 10+. Maybe Valaya could do something else for the dwarf army with her second spell? What do you think? :) 

What does "siege" armor mean? Is that a term from the roleplaying Warhammer game?


Regarding your last comment, does that basically mean that the dwarfs get 1D6+9" flee distance? I get that they are disciplined enough to get into a marching stride while disordered and running - but maybe Valaya could be more about staying in the fight rather than running further from it? Like Valaya could be a reminder of why you fight, and what you fight for, and the thought of that to a dwarf makes them stand their ground even more! 

By the way, I really like the quote "Keep to yer oaths, and they'll keep you"! 



#32 Turgin Ironbeard

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Posted 20 May 2020 - 09:35 PM

I can flesh out the Valaya marching to be 9" or 2d6, whichever is higher, and to note that units might gain a further bonus of some sort on units breaking.

 

Please think of the Valaya march away rule as more retreat instead of rout. One of the sad facts of war's reality is that no matter how well disciplined, eventually, some unit will need to break away and give ground.

 

Rather than rout, or collapse, the unit simply retreats in a very disciplined and orderly manner. Maybe 1d6+4 rather than just 1d6 to fall back, and then they may either march 9", or if the 2d6 come up 10+", move that far as well instead.

 

And if need be stated, if they are within some distance of another Dwarf unit that is not retreating, they can automatically rally on the controlling player's next turn.

 

Siege armor is Dwarf Heavy armor, or, a model with Light, Heavy, and Siege over it. As in, Light is a leather jack, Heavy is a chainshirt, and Siege is full body Dwarf chain with a Great helm and Breastplate over all that chainmail.


Edited by Turgin Ironbeard, 20 May 2020 - 09:35 PM.





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