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#1 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:24 AM

So soon I'll be playing my first few games of KoW, was aiming for 1500pts - more tactical than 1K but not as big as 2K, I guess :)

Formation           Unit                Size            Options                                 Cost
                
Fortress Guard      Shield Breakers     Horde           Blade of Slashing, Mastiffs             230
                    King                Individual                                              120
                    Rifles              Troop                                                   115
                    Rifles              Troop                                                   115
                    Organ Gun           War Engine                                              85
                
Engineering Aux     Crossbows           Horde           Heart-Seeking Chant                     255
                    Warsmith            Individual      Boom Stick                              115
                    Crossbows           Troop                                                   100
                    Organ Gun           War Engine                                              85
                
Support Aux         Ironclad            Horde           Mace of Crushing, Fire Oil, Mastiffs    200
                    ASB                 Individual      Diadem of Dragon-Kind                   80
                
                
                                                                                        Total   1500

I've organised into Formations for ease of force organisation, and I've tried, for my own fluffiness, to group by flavor. Hopefully I've interpreted the rules for choosing items etc properly.

 

I don't have Brocks, elementals etc, so I thought I'd go a shooty list. Everything has a ranged attack except the king, though I could swap the boom stick onto him.

 

Why did I choose this force (besides based on models I have)?

 

I wanted to try MSU shooting. Yes there are 3 hordes, but that was because I still wanted some core big-blocks (especially for the magic item use), and the whole force-org thing. I think for shooting, I prefer the numbers in troops, generally, for the cost.

 

Organ guns looks pretty insane for their cost, especially with a warsmith, but I have no facts to go by.

 

Strategy. Hold back and shoot (duh). Use the ironclad as a tarpit and try and get the shieldbreakers in a flank or rear (can use the smaller ranged units to try and hold up some units once they get close)

 

Thoughts?

 

P.S. Earth elementals look insane. Berserker troops look like a good choice too, but I'll save that for later.


Edited by TaxiForBiggins, 27 June 2017 - 10:58 PM.


#2 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 10:51 PM

And I just realised that crossbows are only 24 inches, misread the Hvy Crossbow entry. That changes things. I'll have to re-jig it with more rifles, maybe less shooting overall

 

And that table didn't post well, I'll fix


Edited by TaxiForBiggins, 27 June 2017 - 10:58 PM.


#3 jtrowell

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 09:33 AM

Yeah, your list is really lacking in longer range shooting, meaning that anything with a longer range could wait outside 24" and snipe your organ guns and similar targets before advancing (or force you to advance without the main ranged support)

 

One nice way to counter that is eitheir rangers (can move and shot, and even without that vanguard move put then in range turn 1) or sharpshooters (only 5 shots, but with great precision and good Piercing, so you can easity put a few wounds on anything, they are the nemesis of powerful but low nerve war engines like the organ guns or flame canons, and can also be decent to snipe individual even with the -1 to hit them thanks to have a better R& value)

 

Also you seems rather short in inspiring source, you should try ideally to have at least one for each of your formations.

 

Try some army stnadard, maybe equipped with some artefact to give it a ranged attack or spell (cheap options are the war bow or flying hammer, you can even represent them with some kind of gun or pistol, other options include the healing charm or the boomstick, but the new lute of eternal darkness that give bane chant is also a great choice)

 

For your king on foot, it's popular to give it the wings to make it fly and remove his lack of speed. A flying king can go hunt ennemy heroes and war engines, or charge ennemy shooting hordes (remember that doing even one point of damage in melee will disorder them, preventing shooting for one turn, and good luck to a shooting unit even at the horde size, trying to kill a tough dwarf king)



#4 Atzcapotzalco

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:24 AM

I'd agree that Rangers would be a good addition to this list, and it might also help to split up some of the hordes into smaller units, and add some longer range shooting. 

The big problem this list is going to have is that you've got no way to take the initiative. Since none of your shooting reaches into your opponent's deployment zone, and nothing you have moves very fast, they're never really going to be under pressure, and since most of them also can't move and shoot, you can't advance to get range or turn to face a flanking unit without losing a round of shooting.

 

Reload is a particular weakness when combined with a range of 5+, since a single -1 to hit for cover/individual/stealthy effectively cuts your damage in half, so you only really get effective shooting against a unit that stands in front of you on open ground-generally, that's what an opponent is willing to let you shoot. Organ Guns make up for this weakness by having an excellent damage output for their points, Ironwatch much less so. 

Rangers, by contrast, have more attacks, base Ra of 4+, and the capacity to move and shoot, making them a much more dynamic threat, able to react to fast-moving opponents. More importantly, they have Vanguard and Pathfinder, so they can be in position to threaten opponents from turn one, while also presenting a decent melee threat that ignores difficult terrain.

Flame Belchers are also good as mobile firepower that can react to a changing battlefield, since they can not only move and shoot but also ignore many modifiers.

For a pure shooting troop, sharpshooters have a crucial extra 12" of range over ironwatch and a base 4+ to hit, but I admit I'm not speaking from experience here.

 

As far as your melee contingent goes, it feels lacking in relying on two hordes without support, which is another thing Rangers help with, having the versatility to threaten opponents in melee as well as at distance, and able to use pathfinder to move through awkwardly placed woods without penalty. Even so, hordes are very clumsy instruments that often suffer without smaller, more agile units to help manipulate the board in their favour. The Shieldbreaker horde, in particular, may hit like a ton of bricks, but will struggle to make good use of that offensive power, and with only defence 4+ is quite vulnerable to a concentrated attack. A single horde of Ironclad, which are some of the most efficient units in the game in terms of 'effort to remove them' vs 'what they're actually worth', supported by smaller, more flexible units would probably work better-Shieldbreakers and Berserkers both make a good hard hitting reserve as troops.

 

Lastly, minor rules point-units can only take one enchanted item, and your Ironclad horde currently has two.



#5 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 05:34 AM

Yeah, your list is really lacking in longer range shooting, meaning that anything with a longer range could wait outside 24" and snipe your organ guns and similar targets before advancing (or force you to advance without the main ranged support)

 

One nice way to counter that is eitheir rangers (can move and shot, and even without that vanguard move put then in range turn 1) or sharpshooters (only 5 shots, but with great precision and good Piercing, so you can easity put a few wounds on anything, they are the nemesis of powerful but low nerve war engines like the organ guns or flame canons, and can also be decent to snipe individual even with the -1 to hit them thanks to have a better R& value)

 

Also you seems rather short in inspiring source, you should try ideally to have at least one for each of your formations.

 

Try some army stnadard, maybe equipped with some artefact to give it a ranged attack or spell (cheap options are the war bow or flying hammer, you can even represent them with some kind of gun or pistol, other options include the healing charm or the boomstick, but the new lute of eternal darkness that give bane chant is also a great choice)

 

For your king on foot, it's popular to give it the wings to make it fly and remove his lack of speed. A flying king can go hunt ennemy heroes and war engines, or charge ennemy shooting hordes (remember that doing even one point of damage in melee will disorder them, preventing shooting for one turn, and good luck to a shooting unit even at the horde size, trying to kill a tough dwarf king)

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Shooting - yep totally. As I mentioned I misread range on XBows. Isn't there an item that gives range? Maybe I should put that on the horde and change them to rifles or something

Inspiring - I do have an ASB in there with Diadem of Dragon Kind

King - yeah, I have wings on pharoah for undead, seems like a good idea here to thanks

Rangers - seems like a great idea, and I have rangers. Thanks!



#6 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 05:39 AM

I'd agree that Rangers would be a good addition to this list, and it might also help to split up some of the hordes into smaller units, and add some longer range shooting. 

The big problem this list is going to have is that you've got no way to take the initiative. Since none of your shooting reaches into your opponent's deployment zone, and nothing you have moves very fast, they're never really going to be under pressure, and since most of them also can't move and shoot, you can't advance to get range or turn to face a flanking unit without losing a round of shooting.

 

Reload is a particular weakness when combined with a range of 5+, since a single -1 to hit for cover/individual/stealthy effectively cuts your damage in half, so you only really get effective shooting against a unit that stands in front of you on open ground-generally, that's what an opponent is willing to let you shoot. Organ Guns make up for this weakness by having an excellent damage output for their points, Ironwatch much less so. 

Rangers, by contrast, have more attacks, base Ra of 4+, and the capacity to move and shoot, making them a much more dynamic threat, able to react to fast-moving opponents. More importantly, they have Vanguard and Pathfinder, so they can be in position to threaten opponents from turn one, while also presenting a decent melee threat that ignores difficult terrain.

Flame Belchers are also good as mobile firepower that can react to a changing battlefield, since they can not only move and shoot but also ignore many modifiers.

For a pure shooting troop, sharpshooters have a crucial extra 12" of range over ironwatch and a base 4+ to hit, but I admit I'm not speaking from experience here.

 

As far as your melee contingent goes, it feels lacking in relying on two hordes without support, which is another thing Rangers help with, having the versatility to threaten opponents in melee as well as at distance, and able to use pathfinder to move through awkwardly placed woods without penalty. Even so, hordes are very clumsy instruments that often suffer without smaller, more agile units to help manipulate the board in their favour. The Shieldbreaker horde, in particular, may hit like a ton of bricks, but will struggle to make good use of that offensive power, and with only defence 4+ is quite vulnerable to a concentrated attack. A single horde of Ironclad, which are some of the most efficient units in the game in terms of 'effort to remove them' vs 'what they're actually worth', supported by smaller, more flexible units would probably work better-Shieldbreakers and Berserkers both make a good hard hitting reserve as troops.

 

Lastly, minor rules point-units can only take one enchanted item, and your Ironclad horde currently has two.

 

Yeah thanks, rangers definitely seem like the way to go. Don't have Sharpshooter-ish models, and don't want to proxy anything since I have a large painted WFB dwarf army to play with.

 

Youve convinced me to drop the horde of Shieldbreakers. I would like to keep the horde of Ironclad though, they seem like they'd just stick around forever.

 

General Improvement direction:

* Remove horde of shieldbreakers and a few (most?) of the small ranged units

* Add troops/regiments of shieldbreakers and rangers

* Consider dropping the horde of Xbows to a regiment, possibly change to rifles.

* Adjust hero items

 

Thanks!



#7 jtrowell

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 07:48 AM

To answer a previous question, there is indeed an artefact that increase the range of shooting : the jar of the 4 winds (increase range by 12", does not work on breath attacks and spells, only on nomral shooting attacks), and it's indeed a very nice option for something like a crossbow or rifle horde, but it will make your opponent target your horde even more, so be prepared to cover it and expect things like cheap and fast mobile heroes or fliers to try to disorder it



#8 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 03:39 AM

To answer a previous question, there is indeed an artefact that increase the range of shooting : the jar of the 4 winds (increase range by 12", does not work on breath attacks and spells, only on nomral shooting attacks), and it's indeed a very nice option for something like a crossbow or rifle horde, but it will make your opponent target your horde even more, so be prepared to cover it and expect things like cheap and fast mobile heroes or fliers to try to disorder it

 

Yeah I found that item thanks :) Changed to Riflemen horse with the jar.

 

Currently doing the analysis on whether shieldbreakers or 2H Iron Guard... the shieldbreakers cost less and have CS2, but the ironguard have Me 3+ and De 5+ and an extra nerve, so more survivable... I suppose I could give ironguard the brew of strength, but that's a total of an extra 60pts for the unit. To look at it the other way, would I give sheildbreakers +1Me, +1De and +1Ne for 60pts?



#9 lordgoober

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 05:42 PM

what I did to make my sharpshooters was to make a movement tray the size of the footptrint and put cover in the front half and 5 slots for riflemen in the back

 



#10 jtrowell

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 08:30 AM

Yes it can work. It's even better if you can slightly modify the standard rifles, they alredy look close to sniper rifles anyways, butif you can manage to make them longer or add a bigger scope they will be even better.






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