20 replies to this topic

[Ironblood]

I tested the shooting and melee stats of 15 basic Quarrellers and Thunderers.

I used an average of ten attacks to find my data.

 

​Thunderers

​Shooting average - 4.4 Wounds

Melee average - 1.4 Wounds

 

Quarrellers

Shooting average - 2.5 Wounds

Melee average - 2.4 Wounds

 

From this data, it appears that Thunderers are a better 15 model shooter than Quarrellers. Quarrellers on the other hand, trade their shooting ability for increased melee capabilities making them a more balanced choice. I am sure people have done tests like this before, but I just wanted to share my results.

 

 

 

[Thunderförge]

Oh yes! I assumed they would both have a hand weapon, but indeed, Quarrellers are armed with a 'Ranger's Axe' whereas Thunderers merely use their 'Gun-butts'.

 

Fine by me - I prefer a good old fashioned crossbow, just the thing for popping those ha'ak Overlords out of the sky!

[JB-Sounder]

If I've done the math right, Quarrellers should be wounding on 1/4 of all attacks (melee and range).  Thunderers should be wounding on 1/3 of ranged and 1/6 of melee. 

 

So if you have run your experiment longer you should come out to 3.75 wounds for Q and 5 wounds for T ranged.  3.75 wounds for Q and 2.5 wounds for T melee.

 

Quarrellers also have an extra 4" of range.

[Thunderförge]

That extra 4" should get the Quarrellers 20% more shots than the Thunderers (ie based on 20" against 16")

 

Okay it probably doesn't work out quite like that, with charge ranges and enemy movement taken into account...

[Pendrakk]

Since these units must be taken in increments of ten, maybe doing one ten and one twenty comparrison. I would take 20 quarrelers or 10 thunderers since quarrelers get double shots at twenty.

[Ironblood]

Since these units must be taken in increments of ten, maybe doing one ten and one twenty comparrison. I would take 20 quarrelers or 10 thunderers since quarrelers get double shots at twenty.

 

Assuming you are getting your rules from The General's Handbook, you don't have to take them in increments of ten in matched play. You could have 11 models in a unit, but they would cost the same amount of points as if they were a unit of 20. I guess you would have to take them in increments of ten if you wanted peak point efficiency, but you don't have to.

[Graydon Ironshield]

Never noticed those Ranger Axes before. What I usually do is have a friendly Runelord nearby to buff the Quarrellers in their Shooting by giving those crossbows a -1 Rend. Range of a Quarreller, punch of a Thunderer, and it annoys my opponent when his crossbows can't do the same. Then again, they aren't used to facing Duardin all the time.

[Pendrakk]

@Ironblood: You are right about that but i think you missed my point, I was just sugesting doing a comparison of both units at base value and at 20 as they each have a seperate buff at 20. You wouldn't pay for a 6 pack of beer and leave some of it at the register.

[Thane Choate]

I'm not sure it's a matter of one better than the other, it's a matter of uses.

I tend to field one regiment of quarrelers per two or three regiments of thunderers. The thunderers I put in heavy fire power areas, pinch points or towards the back near my artillery. The quarrelers are always closer the the front than most of my thunderers, sometimes set askew, between thunderers so they can close combat with regiments threatening to take out my thunderers. Sometimes I'll set them near the front, tip of the sword I sometimes use them for early volleys, first strike kind of thing, then their ranger axes allow them to hold for a moment while backup shows up.

[Pendrakk]

What size games do you normally play?

[Thane Choate]

5k as a minimum

[Pendrakk]

Nice. Your tactics suggested a large scale game.

[Graydon Ironshield]

I usually play in much smaller matches myself, due to constraints on my time. If I'm lucky I can get in a 2k game. I certainly don't have enough painted Dwarfs to get in a 5k match.

[Mordicia Stonecleavor]

Actually, my question is: Grundstok Thunderers vs. Irondrakes

[Zidane_blade]

In a Kharadron alliegance army?

[Mordicia Stonecleavor]

No. Some of the issues I have with the K.O. I can fix by taking Dispossessed.

At 2000 points, I can easily take Dispossessed for durability and K.O. for mobility.

[Zidane_blade]

Hmm, well the grundstok have great flexibility in their armament.
On the other hand, Irondrakes do decent damage and double their shoots if not moving. And have better defense potential (although, with ability of the grundstok to flee from combat, potentially before the enemy gets to strike, is a great defensive strategy in its own right).

[Killer Angel]

Curious, I wanted to start a series of threads, analyzing some of our units: Thunderers vs Quarrelers; warmachines confrontation; hammerers vs Ironbreakers and so on.

 

Being a diligent young dwarf, I noticed that there was already a thread on the subject of Thunderers vs Quarrelers, and so i think it's nice to expand it one of with my own analysis, instead of opening a new thread.

 

Thunderers and Quarrelers are mainly a shooting force, so, for now, I won't keep in account their melee prowess.

 

 

Both the units are made to shine in high numbers. 20 is the magical number, that gives double shooting to quarrelers and +1 to hit to thunderers.

For the sake of discussions, I won't consider the Veteran, for average results of shooting.

 

RANGE.

 

Quarrelers got a 20" range

Thunderers got a 16" range

 

having a move of 4", it seems that quarrelers gain one additional turn of shooting.

This, however, is true only when you are attacking a defensive position... when it's someone else that attacks you, these 4" are less decisive, especially when we face fast armies (cavalries with move 12", Flying dudes with 14", anything related to destruction that can count on additional moves during their hero phase, all those units that can run AND charge...)

All in all, i tend to say that the additional range of quarrelers is indeed nice, but also situational.

 

 

CHANCES TO WOUND

 

Quarrelers got a 4+/4+, no rend

Thunderers got a 4+/3+, rend -1

 

10 quarrelers, on average, will force 2-3 saves, no rend

10 thunderers, on average, will force 3-4 saves, -1 rend.

 

for small units (<20), thunderers are better shooters than quarrelers.

Let's see if we increase the numbers

 

30 models.

30 quarrelers gains double shooting and, on average, will force 15 saves, no rend

30 thunderers will gain +1 to hit, so 3+/3+; on average, they will force 12-13 saves, -1 rend.

 

As you can see, when you play high numbers, quarrelers will force more saves than thunderers, but without rend. So it really depends on the enemy you're facing.

Units with good or passable saves? rend matters, so thunderers are better than quarrelers.

Units with rend immunity (spirit hosts), no saves (plague monks) or saves 6+: Quarrelers are better than thunderers.

 

In my opinion, 20 is a bad number for a unit of quarrelers. They shine with double salve, and at 20, the enemy keeds to kill just one quarreler, to send them into the pit of "no double shooting", which hurts them a lot. I would advice against a decision to field 20 quarrelers: the risk is truly high.

 

 

ADDITIONAL OPTIONS

 

Quarrelers can rely on Bugman.

This is, indeed, a huge boost that you can give to a quarrelers unit and to your whole army: we are slow, so the ability to pop a unit wherever you need, is very valuable. And quarrelers can also act as weak character killer (grey mages and similar), shooting when they appear... a thing that other units (miners) cannot do.

Thunderers don't have any specific boost.

Grimm Burloksson can increase the range of quarrelers OR thunderers, so they are on par.

Runelord is useful to both of them.

 

CLOSE COMBAT

 

Ranger's axes are better than gun-butts, so there's no doubt here: quarrelers are better than thunderers in melee... but it's not their job to fight hand-to-hand, if you must do it, you're already in a bad shape.

 

 

CONCLUSIONS

 

Both units have their own merit. All in all, with small numbers (<20), thunderers are basically better than quarrelers.

At high numbers, which one is better depends on circumstances, SO, if you know what kind of enemy you are going to face, you can pick what's better for you.

If you don't know.... probably it would be better to have a unit of quarrelers and one of thunderers, picking the targets they are better equipped to deal with.

If you can afford just one unit... eh, once I was a fan of quarrelers, now i'm more fond of thunderers.

 

 

 

Additional thoughts?

 

Edited by Killer Angel, 25 June 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[Magnous]

Curious, I wanted to start a series of threads, analyzing some of our units: Thunderers vs Quarrelers; warmachines confrontation; hammerers vs Ironbreakers and so on.

Being a diligent young dwarf, I noticed that there was already a thread on the subject of Thunderers vs Quarrelers, and so i think it's nice to expand it one of with my own analysis, instead of opening a new thread.

Thunderers and Quarrelers are mainly a shooting force, so, for now, I won't keep in account their melee prowess.


Both the units are made to shine in high numbers. 20 is the magical number, that gives double shooting to quarrelers and +1 to hit to thunderers.
For the sake of discussions, I won't consider the Veteran, for average results of shooting.

RANGE.

Quarrelers got a 20" range
Thunderers got a 16" range

having a move of 4", it seems that quarrelers gain one additional turn of shooting.
This, however, is true only when you are attacking a defensive position... when it's someone else that attacks you, these 4" are less decisive, especially when we face fast armies (cavalries with move 12", Flying dudes with 14", anything related to destruction that can count on additional moves during their hero phase, all those units that can run AND charge...)
All in all, i tend to say that the additional range of quarrelers is indeed nice, but also situational.


CHANCES TO WOUND

Quarrelers got a 4+/4+, no rend
Thunderers got a 4+/3+, rend -1

10 quarrelers, on average, will force 2-3 saves, no rend
10 thunderers, on average, will force 3-4 saves, -1 rend.

for small units (<20), thunderers are better shooters than quarrelers.
Let's see if we increase the numbers

30 models.
30 quarrelers gains double shooting and, on average, will force 15 saves, no rend
30 thunderers will gain +1 to hit, so 3+/3+; on average, they will force 12-13 saves, -1 rend.

As you can see, when you play high numbers, quarrelers will force more saves than thunderers, but without rend. So it really depends on the enemy you're facing.
Units with good or passable saves? rend matters, so thunderers are better than quarrelers.
Units with rend immunity (spirit hosts), no saves (plague monks) or saves 6+: Quarrelers are better than thunderers.

In my opinion, 20 is a bad number for a unit of quarrelers. They shine with double salve, and at 20, the enemy keeds to kill just one quarreler, to send them into the pit of "no double shooting", which hurts them a lot. I would advice against a decision to field 20 quarrelers: the risk is truly high.


ADDITIONAL OPTIONS

Quarrelers can rely on Bugman.
This is, indeed, a huge boost that you can give to a quarrelers unit and to your whole army: we are slow, so the ability to pop a unit wherever you need, is very valuable. And quarrelers can also act as weak character killer (grey mages and similar), shooting when they appear... a thing that other units (miners) cannot do.
Thunderers don't have any specific boost.
Grimm Burloksson can increase the range of quarrelers OR thunderers, so they are on par.
Runelord is useful to both of them.

CLOSE COMBAT

Ranger's axes are better than gun-butts, so there's no doubt here: quarrelers are better than thunderers in melee... but it's not their job to fight hand-to-hand, if you must do it, you're already in a bad shape.


CONCLUSIONS

Both units have their own merit. All in all, with small numbers (<20), thunderers are basically better than quarrelers.
At high numbers, which one is better depends on circumstances, SO, if you know what kind of enemy you are going to face, you can pick what's better for you.
If you don't know.... probably it would be better to have a unit of quarrelers and one of thunderers, picking the targets they are better equipped to deal with.
If you can afford just one unit... eh, once I was a fan of quarrelers, now i'm more fond of thunderers.



Additional thoughts?

[Magnous]

Excellent analysis there killerangel thank you. After reading your conclusions I too would agree that an all around list needs to have both of these units and place them against the proper opponents where neeeded. Also, while the rune lord buff always seems to be the obvious choice as to who it ll be used on - Quarrelers, depending on my opponent, I could use it on thunderers to crush down an important unit as fast as possible while harassing other targets with the non rend attacks of the quarrelers.