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Starting To Play With Competitive Builds


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#1 Montegue

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 04:51 PM

So, I'm beginning to play with competitive builds. I put this together recently. 

Dwarves w Elf Allies - 

Horde of Ironclad

Horde of Shieldbreakers

Reg. of Ironguard

Reg. of Brock Riders w Strength

2 Troops of Rangers

Brock Lord on Brock with Blade of the Beast Slayer

Stone Priest w Bane Chant and Inspire talisman

King on Large Beast

 

Regiment of Drakkon Riders (using Gyros as counts-as)

Dragon Kindred Lord (Using my big clockwork dragon). 

Whaddya think? Not enough to move around? I think I'm weak on chaff and have no shooting phase to speak of, short of the dragon's breath weapon and the ranger shots. However, I think the Dragon Kindred lord gives me some forward pressure and a response to other fliers (when supplimented by the Zerker Lord on the brock to provide killing punch). I dunno. 



#2 jtrowell

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 07:26 AM

How do you plan to deploy your army ?

 

Usually it's a good idea to separate the army in several detachments/groups of units, usually with each one around one inspiring hero (with the occasionnal wildcard unit that will be eitheir alone (like a vanguard ranger unit) or added to a group depending on the opponent.

 

This will also help give an idea of how you plan to *use* the army, KoW is not a game where you can simply take a netlist, you have to know how to use it too. in addition it will also show that you have put some tought to the army general strategy now, and not wait until you see your opponent army for that (it happens more often than you would think  :innocent: )



#3 Montegue

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 06:40 PM

It sort of depends on the needs of the scenario plus what my opponent has to offer. With this build, I want my Brock Riders to have a flank, and normally the Lord goes with them to add punch and inspiring if needs be. Sometimes he has to hang back to deal with enemy flying monsters. Ironclad, Shieldbreakers, and Ironguard make up the center of the line, with the Ironguard out to whichever flank needs the D6. Ranger troops can go anywhere. Sometimes they sit on objectives, sometimes they screen units, sometimes they work as detachments. It sort of depends. They're a utility knife. The Dragon Kindred Lord and Drakkon Riders would be forward pressure elements on the enemy. Together they can push a weak flank or force the opponent to be concerned about his rear arcs. 

 



#4 Montegue

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 07:01 PM

Also thought about an aggressive, rugged build. Almost no shooting. 

2 Reg of Ironguard

1 horde of Shieldbreakers

1 reg of Brock Riders (Brew of Strength)

1 troop of Rangers 

1 Horde of Earth Elementals

2 Greater Earth Elementals

Stone Priest w/Bane Chant and Inspire talisman

King on a Beast with Regen amulet

Brock Lord on Brock with Blade of the Beast Slayer

Flame Belcher



#5 jtrowell

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 08:03 AM

This second list can have some difficulty in some cases, but with the low use currently of war engines with high piercing it might put a high pressure on many opponents.

 

I like the fact that despite having some rather elite units, you still have a lot of units to deploy.

 

Hum, maybe it might be useful to try to find a place for a second flame belcher, to better protect against flier heavy armies or multiples fast units trying to flank you. butt it's probably something to test in a real game.



#6 billycapgun37

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 12:01 AM

For the first list, I find that the stone priest is largely wasted especially since there are no elementals for him to surge. For the cost you pay for him, you could easily get another unit.

 

Rangers are amazing. I take 3 troops minimum every game.

King on Large beast is cool, but it depends on what you're doing with him. I usually use him as a late game charge to try and mop up units, or as a double charge threat. I think him and the berserker lord is too much. The king is super expensive and his nerve isn't that great. He tends to get targeted a lot. I've tried giving him regen or the wine of elvenkind to try and make him more useful, but meh. I take him because dwarfs on bears are awesome.

 

As far as hordes go, I've tried using more than one, and it's tough. Shieldbreakers are rough because they're so hitty, but man they get stomped hard with that low defense. I like to use them in regiments now and a horde of ironclad (and I give the ironclad brew of strength).

Ironguard hold forever. They're amazing. Small footprint, but big roadblock.

 

So short story, drop the Stone Priest, drop one of the characters (king or berserker), maybe switch a horde into two regiments, and get at least two army standard bearers. With the excess points, you should be able to get another troop of rangers and maybe a magic item or two. Like I said, I like brew of strength on ironclad; it makes them a real threat. Also, elite or pathfinder on brocks is amazing.

 

I know this is kind of long-winded, but I hope it helps. Happy wargaming!



#7 Montegue

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 02:26 PM

I think you're right about the King. I love him, because I really want the Scibor guy, but I don't know if he's the best choice at Ne15. The regen item gives him some staying power, but he's only badass on the charge (although, his ability to be a strong flanker is nice). I also think you're right about two hordes. Because charge ranges are taken from the leader point, and ours is a little short, it's actually hard to get them into combat. 

I've found I rely on the Brock Riders a lot for killing power, and that +Strength helps a lot in that endeavor. They often find themselves taking a counter charge or even a charge from a flying enemy or unit. I like having that +1cs on the counter charge. It makes them a threat against everything. I've thought about a second regiment or even a troop of them, and I'd definitely consider the caterpillar potion for that unit. 

I love the Earth Elementals and think they provide a cool backline defense option and some flexible movement and counter charge options that often take an opponent by surprise. The Stone Priest makes that possible. Without him they're too slow. I do worry that they might be too slow to play aggressively with but so far most opponents meet me somewhere along the centerline of the board. 

The big challenges for me tend to be flying monsters with high defense, heavy cavalry, and magical shooting (heavy lightning bolts, etc). 



#8 billycapgun37

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 12:14 AM

I think you're right about the King. I love him, because I really want the Scibor guy, but I don't know if he's the best choice at Ne15. The regen item gives him some staying power, but he's only badass on the charge (although, his ability to be a strong flanker is nice). I also think you're right about two hordes. Because charge ranges are taken from the leader point, and ours is a little short, it's actually hard to get them into combat. 

I've found I rely on the Brock Riders a lot for killing power, and that +Strength helps a lot in that endeavor. They often find themselves taking a counter charge or even a charge from a flying enemy or unit. I like having that +1cs on the counter charge. It makes them a threat against everything. I've thought about a second regiment or even a troop of them, and I'd definitely consider the caterpillar potion for that unit. 

-Agreed. The brocks are a big killing unit. They dish out a lot of hurt. I'm sure the CS is great. I'll have to try that out sometime.

I love the Earth Elementals and think they provide a cool backline defense option and some flexible movement and counter charge options that often take an opponent by surprise. The Stone Priest makes that possible. Without him they're too slow. I do worry that they might be too slow to play aggressively with but so far most opponents meet me somewhere along the centerline of the board. 

-Elementals are dope. I would (almost) definitely take a stone priest if I was bringing elementals. I almost feel like you'd need at least 2-3 units (mixed between lesser and greater elementals) to make him worth his points. My problem right now is I just don't have enough of them to make them work, so I don't use them. I'd like to though.

The big challenges for me tend to be flying monsters with high defense, heavy cavalry, and magical shooting (heavy lightning bolts, etc). 

-Lol welcome to Kings of War! That said, if you can see this stuff coming, try and play a refused flank against terrain or the edge of the table. Layer your troops and set up brilliant counter attacks when one of your units dies, or holds. Not a lot a dragon can do with 24 CS2 attacks in the flank.

 



#9 supergrimey

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 01:29 PM

I think you're right about the King. I love him, because I really want the Scibor guy, but I don't know if he's the best choice at Ne15. The regen item gives him some staying power, but he's only badass on the charge (although, his ability to be a strong flanker is nice). I also think you're right about two hordes. Because charge ranges are taken from the leader point, and ours is a little short, it's actually hard to get them into combat. 

I've found I rely on the Brock Riders a lot for killing power, and that +Strength helps a lot in that endeavor. They often find themselves taking a counter charge or even a charge from a flying enemy or unit. I like having that +1cs on the counter charge. It makes them a threat against everything. I've thought about a second regiment or even a troop of them, and I'd definitely consider the caterpillar potion for that unit. 

I love the Earth Elementals and think they provide a cool backline defense option and some flexible movement and counter charge options that often take an opponent by surprise. The Stone Priest makes that possible. Without him they're too slow. I do worry that they might be too slow to play aggressively with but so far most opponents meet me somewhere along the centerline of the board. 

The big challenges for me tend to be flying monsters with high defense, heavy cavalry, and magical shooting (heavy lightning bolts, etc). 

 

This very closely echos my evolution into the game.

 

King : I have the Scibor mini (I actually got the 3 pack).  I have tried to use him but like you I found the 13/15 nerve to be too much a liability, and the reliance on TC just takes the bite away.

 

Earth Elementals : I love earth elementals.  I run two groupings of <Stone Priest, Earth Elemental Horde, Greater Earth Elemental> in a game 2000 points or greater.  I generally give on EEH Elite and the other Vicious to offset the 4+ melee stat.  While the Stone Priest is an expensive character, it is pretty rare that one dies as they are pretty tough.  A Stone priest is also the only source of Bane Chant Dwarfs have access too, which can be pretty be combat swinger.

 

Flying Monsters : I still haven't gotten this figured out all the well.  I don't tend to run much artillery so the main thing I have as a deterrent is surgable units AND Berserker Lorde on Brock with Blade of Beast Slayer.  Neither of those two threats beats the flying circus though, but it does give you some breathing room for a turn or two.

 

The only left to add is my favorite character, Ranger Captain with Wings of Honeymaze.  He is great for taking out war machines, disordering casters, and stripping TC from units all for a reasonable price tag.  No one expects a 20" vanguard, and that is always helps to start your opponent off on a reactive stance to you.
 



#10 BertieDwarf

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 04:39 PM

Is that you Scott birkett!?

#11 supergrimey

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 05:39 PM

Is that you Scott birkett!?

 

That is what my youtube channel tells me.

 

I guess I do keep spouting the same message over and over on that channel.



#12 BertieDwarf

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 05:43 PM

Is that you Scott birkett!?


That is what my youtube channel tells me.

I guess I do keep spouting the same message over and over on that channel.

Haha nice mate long time subscriber here bud shame you have moved on from your dwarfs! Love it mate - been thinking you should do a dwarf army review like!?

#13 Montegue

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 07:00 PM

Continuing to tinker - 

Horde of Ironclad

Horde of Shieldbreakers

Horde of Elementals

Regiment of Ironguard

Regiment of Brock Riders w/Brew of Strength

2 Organ Cannons

2 Jarrun Bombards
ASB with the Diadem of Dragonkind
Berserker Lord w/Brock and Blade of Beast Slaying

Stone Priest with Bane Chant

Warsmith

Greater Earth Elemental

Basically, a group of rock hard troops, some strong shooting complimented by a Warsmith, and a bit of movement. I don't have a flying hero to deal with a horde of shooters, which could be problematic, though the Berserker lord might do in a pinch. If the Bombards "I Swear too much" out (and they could. Only a 50/50 chance for a hit each turn), that could wind up being a waste of points. 

I think the elemental combination is really potent. When a Stone Priest is present, they can offer a lot of defense in the back field, and some flexible movement options. I can't quit the Lord on the Brock because he's so good at helping the brock riders take out large critters. He's also good at putting some wounds on the big fliers. The organ guns in a pair with a warsmith can control sections of the board, but this build lacks troops to hang back and defend them. That could be a problem. 

 

 


Edited by Montegue, 16 May 2016 - 07:03 PM.


#14 supergrimey

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 02:03 AM

 

 

Is that you Scott birkett!?


That is what my youtube channel tells me.

I guess I do keep spouting the same message over and over on that channel.

Haha nice mate long time subscriber here bud shame you have moved on from your dwarfs! Love it mate - been thinking you should do a dwarf army review like!?

 

 

Not to derail too much here, but yeah I have been playing a lot more Kingdoms of Men lately, but I also am desperately short of opponents to play so I wouldn't have any reports as it is.  I might someday consider making a Dwarf army review video, but I wouldn't want to do that solo as I don't have experience with quite everything.

 

Continuing to tinker - 

Horde of Ironclad

Horde of Shieldbreakers

Horde of Elementals

Regiment of Ironguard

Regiment of Brock Riders w/Brew of Strength

2 Organ Cannons

2 Jarrun Bombards
ASB with the Diadem of Dragonkind
Berserker Lord w/Brock and Blade of Beast Slaying

Stone Priest with Bane Chant

Warsmith

Greater Earth Elemental

Basically, a group of rock hard troops, some strong shooting complimented by a Warsmith, and a bit of movement. I don't have a flying hero to deal with a horde of shooters, which could be problematic, though the Berserker lord might do in a pinch. If the Bombards "I Swear too much" out (and they could. Only a 50/50 chance for a hit each turn), that could wind up being a waste of points. 

I think the elemental combination is really potent. When a Stone Priest is present, they can offer a lot of defense in the back field, and some flexible movement options. I can't quit the Lord on the Brock because he's so good at helping the brock riders take out large critters. He's also good at putting some wounds on the big fliers. The organ guns in a pair with a warsmith can control sections of the board, but this build lacks troops to hang back and defend them. That could be a problem. 

 

 

Looks very solid, plenty of bodies and ways to reach out and touch things. 

 

My only concerns would be 1 inspiring source for 2 hordes and a regiment.  This would just be problematic if you want to run them out in a line AND keep them all covered since the hordes are pretty big.

 

The other thing I would consider would be too look for some space for a troop of Ironclad or two.  I find the Shieldbreakers are not great at taking a charge from high volume attack units (I have had a horde of shield breakers get wavered from a troop of soul reavers), and sacrificing a 75 point troop to make sure your breakers get the first charge is something I like.

 

As something bellow (I didn't work out the points, but the character/wm/monster unlocks should be fine).

 

Horde of Ironclad

Horde of Shieldbreakers

Horde of Elementals

Regiment of Ironguard -> Two Troops Ironclad

Regiment of Brock Riders w/Brew of Strength

2 Organ Cannons

2 Jarrun Bombards 3 Organ Cannons OR 2 Organ Cannons + Flame Belcher / Bombard
ASB with the Diadem of Dragonkind
Berserker Lord w/Brock and Blade of Beast Slaying

Stone Priest with Bane Chant

Warsmith

Greater Earth Elemental



#15 Montegue

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Posted 26 May 2016 - 04:23 PM

Got the "I Swear too much" pounded out of me last night with a couple of different lists. I'm starting to see some cracks form in the army. My first opponent was playing Twilight Kin. His bolt throwers were better than any artillery (and cheaper) than we can put on the table. 48" range, 2 shots, 4+ to hit, piercing 2, and vicious (elite for regular elves). Even with using terrain and even models to provide cover, they were able to do damage the whole game. I seriously felt the lack of a flier in that game, so a winged someone is now probably an absolute necessity. 

 

That game also included some big mistakes from me I need to trust my instincts for ensuring victory in a single charge and basically overdo it so that I don't get left hanging in the wind. At one point, I split brock riders and brock lord, reasoning I could pop a regiment of knights with the Brocks in a single turn and put wounds enough on a dragon with my Beast Slayer sword to possibly waver him. Both plans failed. That's more or less when it fell apart. Instead, I should have put the Brock Lord into the knights, popped it, then pivoted to put things in the front, and then countercharged after my high nerve berserkers held the line. 

The second game really exposed some weaknesses (both in my skill and in the army). I played with the allies (dragon and some elohi) against rats. With three flame cannons and some lightining bolts, he was able to pull a unit of mine off the table every turn - brock riders, the dragon, etc. My other units couldn't kill enough to make up for the loss so it was a pretty good slaughter. Rats have excellent melee (their elite hordes are amazing, and slave regiments make excellent chaff) and shooting and access to spammable lightning bolt. 

The weaknesses we have that I'm not sure how to overcome - 

1) No very powerful heroes to provide a forward threat that must be addressed. No flying dragon hero, etc. 

2) Little access to strong individuals with enough move to slip behind enemy lines and get into war machines efficiently enough to stop them. 

3) only one hero can have flying in the army. 

4) No access to a lightning bolt equivalent with the exception of the Boom Stick. Lightning bolts will tear anything and everything you have to pieces, even if it's D6. Hitting on 4s, piercing, etc. 

5) Our shooting honestly kind of sucks. My bombards did produce some decent results in both games, but the unreliability of 5+ to hit and no way to make it better means that they tend to miss when it really matters, and only make up their points if the enemy fails to kill them before they can produce. Terrain makes it even harder for a shooting investment to really pay off. 

I think we're stuck with our list as is for a long time to come. I hope when the Rules Committee is asked to look at 3rd edition they add some essential tools to the army. The King, for example, on the large beast is only N15 to pop. He's too easy to kill for his points, and he doesn't really provide a lot of offensive output, relying on TC to get any real wounds through. Sveri is good, but at 240 points and only D4 he's too squishy to be worth taking. Someone can just Lightning Bolt him off the board in a single turn and not worry about it anymore (H3 is easy to target). 

We need a flying unit, I think, or we need to be able to make heroes fly somehow. I also think we need a heavy cavalry unit or a large cav unit. 


Edited by Montegue, 26 May 2016 - 04:24 PM.


#16 billycapgun37

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:31 AM

I sort of like that Dwarfs don't have an "auto include" obligatory dragon-riding hero. That would get sort of boring. Not that I'd complain if there was an option. I'd be out there buying a giant dragon model faster than you can say "Extra Crispy."

 

I've found that you really have to layer your lines and set up charges after your chaff dies. We will almost never get the first charge, so we have to play reactionary.

 

War Engines are a little lackluster. I think we're very spoiled into thinking that they should be taking a unit off the board every turn. The trouble with them is, you usually have to either fully commit to war engines (3+ of the same kind) or ignore them entirely. Unfortunately, if you do take them, they're hard to defend effectively unless you just completely castle up, which will most often cost you a scenario win. I've been using rangers a lot and they do great. They're no bombard hit, but they soften up the enemy enough to smash it with a hammer. I'll probably try and get a couple of organ guns and some flame belchers to try out.

 

Good luck, sir!



#17 Xandar

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 09:51 AM

Montegue, have you tried 2 flame belchers + engineer with Diadem of Dragonkind ?

I like them more than the other warmachines, as they can move and shoot on 4+, have Elite. They lack piercing (can be given by a priest), but can spam shots.

 

Did you try the behemoth ?


Edited by Xandar, 27 May 2016 - 09:53 AM.


#18 Montegue

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 03:58 PM

I only own a single flame cannon, and don't have the bits to cobble another together just yet. I might do so with some of the spare parts leftover from my bombard kit. I like our flame cannons, but they have to be in the action and they're so fragile. A single lightning bolt or fireball can take them out with a decent nerve test. The lack of piercing (unless a stone priest is near) means hey struggle to handle d6 guys.

Definitely considering a troop of berserkers and two troops of ironclad going forward. The ironclad can hang out in front of the shield breakers and likewise with the brock troop. That way they can't just get owned with shooting and spells right away. I've tried the behemoth but I find him to be very slow and hard to maneuver well.

I don't know that we need a dragon guy, but I do wish our king on the beast had roughly equivalent nerve and combat function. I'm cool with him being on the ground, but he's really easy to break with just a little bit of piercing and shooting.

Edited by Montegue, 27 May 2016 - 03:59 PM.


#19 billycapgun37

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 11:29 PM

The King on Large Beast is a little lackluster, but he's also a fair bit cheaper than most other big bad heroes. He's less than half the cost of a Dragon Kindred Lord! His movement can limit him, but his height helps out a lot. I tend to keep him behind the lines at the beginning of the fight for inspiring, but he's perfect for executing a double charge late game. He can pump out just enough damage to help force that nerve check.

 

As for his survivability, it is a little low. I'm going to try him out with the Medallion of Life for Regen 5+, but I also just like giving him sword of slashing just to ensure all of those attacks hit.

 

He's a fun choice, but by no means optimal.

 

As for the behemoth, I like to think of him as a more maneuverable Ironclad horde with tons of CS, more Defense, and a breath weapon. He's a tank. Plus, people usually freak out and pump a bunch of attacks into him out of fear. Then you flank with Shieldbreakers or Rangers and mop up.



#20 Montegue

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 02:27 AM

And more winnowing - 

Ironclad Troop

Ironclad Troop

Ironclad Horde

Shieldbreaker Horde
Earth Elemental Horde

Brock Rider Regiment w/Strength
Greater Earth Elemental

 

3x Bombards

ASB with Diadem

Berserker Lord/Brock/Beast Slayer

Ranger Captain w Wings

Stone Priest with Bane and Inspire

 

Pretty much intend to plunk the two units of shields directly in front of my Shieldbreakers. The Bombards should draw them out of their hole if they try to hide. Then it will be counter punch after a charge. The ranger captain can go after war machines and the like. Stone Priest and ASB share the inspirational responsibility. Earth Elementals and Greater Elemental provide backfield protection.






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