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A Veteran's Take On Kings Of War 2Nd Ed.


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#21 Montegue

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 04:14 PM

I really enjoy the lack of charge reactions and I thought I wouldn't. It's so nice to not have people fleeing every charge and playing grab Test for six turns. You have to fight, you have to put yourself into position to fight, and there will *BE* a fight if you play KoW.

#22 Cuthbo

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 03:43 PM

I think the most jarring thing about KoW is the lack of model removal. Or were we playing it wrong? One of the greatest joys of tabletop wargaming is to see my little brother's units slowly reduced to just 3 models out of 40. And to see the pile of dead, both Dwarf and Elf alike, next to the units after a heavy combat.

#23 Grim1

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 05:13 PM

I think that flee and stand and shoot are ways to get around the old "you've had your turn.... now it's my turn" sort of thing. Hell... even laser squad had opportunity fire. The dynamic of responding to an opponent's charge, in my opinion, produces a more fluid dynamic game which is not complicated and a lot less abstract... improving the game immensely.



#24 Montegue

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 03:01 PM

You wind up responding to charges ahead of time, setting up forced choices for your opponent to make. Instead of that damn elf player fleeing everything, now you can force them to make a bad decision or soak a multi-charge on the following turn. I do miss stand and shoot, though. then again, shooting as a general strategy is pretty toned down in KoW. It's good but not great.

#25 Montegue

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 03:01 PM

You wind up responding to charges ahead of time, setting up forced choices for your opponent to make. Instead of that damn elf player fleeing everything, now you can force them to make a bad decision or soak a multi-charge on the following turn. I do miss stand and shoot, though. then again, shooting as a general strategy is pretty toned down in KoW. It's good but not great.

#26 Atzcapotzalco

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 03:10 PM

In theory, charge reaction style rules can be used to alleviate the problems of a strictly turn based game, but the way warhammer implemented them, as free actions that a unit takes *in addtion to* it's normal move, actually made things significantly worse. 

The main problem with a turn-based system, in both gameplay and 'realsim' terms, is that you have one side moving while their opponents remain frozen in place. This is a problem which increases rapidly the more a unit is capable of doing without a reaction, and because warhammer charge reactions occured before a charging unit could move, they were an extra action a unit could take *before their opponents got to react*. Kings of War, by contrast, manages this problem a lot more effectively by setting strong limits to how much a unit can do in a single turn, before their opponent gets to react. Specifically, a unit can move once, and attack once, and then their opponents get to react to it. Spells are shooting actions, so they replace the chance for a melee/shooting attack, charge distances aren't subject to wild random fluctuations, and follow-up moves are kept to a sensible minimum.

 

Take the example of knights charging riflemen-there's no way for the knights to approach the riflemen to the front without taking at least one turn of shooting, unless the riflemen shoot a different unit. In this case, it's entirely reasonable that while they were occupied shooting one opponent, a second can get a clear charge at them. Certainly, it's more realistic than the riflemen being able to effectively double their rate of fire due to the proximity of an opponent.

It's also entirely possible to set up the style of 'counter charge' described-set up a unit of friendly cavalry next to and slightly ahead of your archers, and you'll be able to charge an approaching enemy unit before they get a chance to charge the archers, unless they're faster. You can also rely on being able to charge a unit the turn after they engage your archers, because even if they wipe your archers out they can't move very far from their position afterwards. The system as a whole works a lot more neatly than warhammer's charge reactions ever did.



#27 Montegue

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 02:01 PM

It just takes adjustment in your head if you're used to the ebb and flow of Warhammer. It's just a new ebb and flow. They go, then you go. You have to think ahead in a way you may have gotten away with not doing in Warhammer previously. It's actually a harder game to play well,in my opinion, despite being a much simpler game to play. 



#28 Grim1

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:06 PM

@Atzcapotzalco. I particularly hate the way that a flyer/cavalry unit can charge another unit.... even a troop of pikeman etc.... and not get even a scratch because of the fact that they waver/rout in one turn.

A different game that I can play when I change my strategy sure (I use dark elf double dragons and dark knights in my twilight kins list).... and yet it's very unrealistic as to how they can smash a unit without consequence unless there is another unit ready and waiting for a countercharge.

The charge becomes too big a factor imo. After all, as people say "I may as well charge you because my massively damaged unit will still have no harm come to it on this turn anyway, and I might get lucky".



#29 jtrowell

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 07:12 AM

You know what is represented by such a charge ? It's the targetted unit fleeing before the impressive charge, or in the case of wavering the unit has been suprised by the charge (or maybe the unit commander was killed first), leaving the the unit confused.

 

Routing doesn't represent damage, it represent the unit effectively being out of the fight. It might be because they lost too many men, but it can also be that they simply.

 

Or is your complaint less about the fluff and more about the gameplay ? You never had a monster killed by an unit with a higher initiative in Warhammer ? To say nothing of the older editions when the charged unit almost never had any significant counter attack anyway due to removing losses in the front and no step up ?

 

Warhammer 8th edition (my favorite Warhammer edition) used as the solution step up and removing from the back, but in practice it meant that close combat still was something that you fought twice, once during your own turn and once during the opponent turn. plus the fact that charging an unit with more units sometimes resulted only with giving the target more attacks (I have bad memories or charing elite elven infantry where adding more units just helped me lose the game faster, to say nothing of when it was with my Tomb kings with crumble making it even worse).

 

Kings of war instead went the opposite way, removing everything outside your own turn, and in practice while I had some fears I found that it works nicely. Also note that the only undamaged units that are easily routed by a cavalry charge are troops, small detachments where it should not be outside expectation that they are unable to mount an effective counter attack against a dedicated cavalry charge. The other situation is where an unit is already heavily damaged, and it was historically one of the main roles of cavalry : finishing damaged unit/making sure that soldiers that start fleeing don't stop and regroup.

 

 



#30 Alebelly_Cragfist

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 10:23 AM

An interesting dynamic would be polearm units, denying a cavalry charge, and essentially acting as impassable terrain if they could face the charge (potentially opening up flanks to charges from other units?)

 

A horse would not drive itself onto a spear. An added level of tactics like that would be interesting and represent the real world where cavalry were shock troops, running left and right until they could be used at the right time, in the right place,  to either smash a counter charge or run down fleeing units.



#31 Montegue

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 03:36 PM

"Also note that the only undamaged units that are easily routed by a cavalry charge are troops, small detachments where it should not be outside expectation that they are unable to mount an effective counter attack against a dedicated cavalry charge. "

 

That's not entirely true. The Undead heavy cavalry (the vampires) can reliably pop my Ironguard (a D6 unit) in a single turn on the charge, even to the front. I've shattered some regiments with my Brock Riders as well, if they have the Strength potion. 


Edited by Montegue, 27 April 2016 - 03:37 PM.


#32 jtrowell

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 07:40 AM

The soul reavers are not what I would call a normal knight unit, they are probably the most powerful (and expensive) cavalry unit in the game, for the cost of a regiment you might almost pay for a dragon or a horde of normal knights.
 
Even then, if they get the charge against Ironguard and their def6+, the soul reavers should inflict on average 8.88 damage, let's say 9, against a nerve value of 15/17 this means that they would waver on 6+ or rout on 8+, with a reroll from inspiring the unit would have a rather good chance of surviving the initial charge, and if wavered headstrong would still give you 50% chance of fifghting back.
 
It's also one situation where a simple regiment of bulwarkers would have been better suited, thanks to Phalanx the Vampire would have needed 4+ to wound them (instead of 3+ against the Ironguard) reducing the average damage to 6.66, so even with the fact that the bulwarkers get 1 less nerve, they would still have a better chance of holding against a frontal charge.
 
Sure, with some decent rolls above average, the soul reaver have a decent chance of routing your iron guard, but note that I wrote "easily routed", and I would not say that the more powerful cavalry in the game having less than 50% chance to rout your ironguard (or even less against the bulwarkers) can really count as that.
 
And of course, when you are against such extreme case (or more frequent against multiple faster units that might combo charge the same target for an even more extreme offensive potential), that's when it's good to have some cheap units to put to the front, so your opponent waste his offensive potential on them rather that your own expensive units.


#33 Grim1

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 09:54 PM

my dark knights regiment regularly routs regiments in one charge. especially if they are elited. hit on threes, often wound on twos rerolling 1s... and don't take a scratch if they manage it. Not realistic imho.... even if I'm winning, doesn't mean the game is right.



#34 Montegue

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 05:28 PM

It was more or less just a quibble. Cavalry is good when they get their charge undisrupted. Really good. Which is fine - there's some different ways to handle them. 



#35 Atzcapotzalco

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 09:51 PM

It's not so unrealistic to be able to destroy a unit without taking significant damage through the use of overwhelming force against an isolated opponent, and these are the only circumstances where you can. If you fail to destroy or  it in a single round, you take damage from the counterattack, and if your target isn't isolated, you also take damage from the counterattack. You might take the damage from different units, but you're still taking damage, and with sensibly limited follow up moves it's hard and often impossible to avoid a well set up counter attack. 

Also in terms of realism, this is a turn based rules set, where a unit will stand still while hostile forces walk right in front of it, come under fire without either taking cover or shooting back, and patiently wait for it's turn to move as a target wanders out of sight behind a forest or withdraws out of range. In the context of such behaviour, that it also wait's until it's own turn to make attacks in close combat is no more than consistent. It really doesn't stand out as being less realistic.

 

As far as chargers being too powerful is concerned, my own experiences have been very much otherwise. I've won a lot of games because an opponent charged too soon, without proper thought to the positioning and left themselves vulnerable. The initial charge is an advantage, but it's one that can be managed and compensated for by sound tactics and good positioning, much more so than was ever possible in WFB when faced by an overwhelmingly powerful melee opponent. 






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