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Future Of Age Of Sigmar

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#21 sgreg308

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 04:18 PM

Perhaps we will not see big rules book. But perhaps instead of getting faq GW will update rules.


^^^this

#22 Lord Alisk

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 04:49 PM

Well, I'm kind of ambivalent at this stage, but more unhappy than anything.

 

I had my first AoS game on Monday. It was OK. I was playing against a guy I've known for nearly 2 years, so it was easy enough for the game to feel really balanced. I see the game is pretty shallow, but it was also the first time I've played it, so I might have missed things (though I seriously doubt this game should be called 'easy to play, difficult to master', or anything like that). It was OK, less good than 8th ed on first impressions, but I wouldn't say no to another game (though we did schedule an 8th ed rematch for next week, which might be the best indicator of how we viewed the new game - OK, but less good than what preceded it). 

 

In many ways I want to like Age of Sigmar. Giving the rules away for free is excellent. It really, really is a good move. Having free-form armies is no bad thing, intrinsically. I'm much more of a painter than a gamer, but I still want to be able (in theory if not in practice) use the models I buy in game (I think that's a fairly common approach, I've found). So having a game which makes it basically OK to just shove stuff on the table is no bad thing in my book - I want to get a giant soon, and I'm going to get a griffon for my wedding anniversary next week, and I'm excited about getting some of the big cool monsters that dwarfs don't get. 

 

However, the rules are just silly. I'm a fairly fluffy, light-hearted player, but they are just daft. The first time I had to 'grumble like a long beard' to get a bonus was sort of fun, the 2nd time it was getting tedious, and by the 3rd time the point - whatever it was - was just well and truly made, and not even fun any more.

 

I suppose what I'm getting at is that even coming at this from a pretty friendly gaming, wanting fluff and colour, point of view, this game is rubbish. It needs changing a lot. I'm not adverse to it being a skirmish game, I'm happy with (non-obligatory) round bases -they actually look pretty good -  but the game needs to be basically OK to have any sort of life span. And this game is just too thin, too ill-focussed to be anything much at all.

 

I see the desire to push the game towards kids. But kids don't actually care. When I was a nipper I played 4th ed fantasy and 2nd ed 40K very, very badly. I and my friends played both games, loved them dearly, and utterly mangled them. Re-reading the rules now, it is agonising either how wrong we got stuff, or how we were so blind as to miss many obvious tactics. But that doesn't matter for children - the look and the feel are all that matter. However, for more mature gamers, the quality of the rules matters a great deal. Children can cope with complicated games - they may well miss a huge amount of the subtlety, but they don't need to be treated like morons to actually play.

 

I suppose this is where I get worried. I actually wasn't all that bothered about AoS being pants - there's still 8th ed, and loads of other games, and I actually don't play that much anyway. What perturbs me a bit is that the look of the game is now so radically different, I seriously worry about what's going to happen with the miniatures I want to buy. I'm building up Empire, Goblin and Vampire armies alongside my Dwarfs (they're all hovering at 1000-1500 points at present), and I'm nervous that my nice 16th century German, mildly steam-punk Empire troops are going to vanish to be replaced with weird Blood Angels knock-offs, or the nice gothic-looking undead to be replaced with whatever those off Morghast models are meant to look like. And blowing up 30 years of lore was just weird. The richness of the lore is GW's biggest advantage over other companies - other companies are catching up in terms of miniatures quality, but in terms of lore they're not even close.

 

GW should appreciate that gamers play a setting much more than they play a game - they play Napoleonics more than they play Black Powder, they play WWII more than they play Bolt Action, good as these games might be. Blowing up the Warhammer World was a far stranger move than destroying the game, in my view.

 

Sorry, I'm rambling off. 

 

Very long post compressed to a short conclusion - I was willing to give the game the benefit of the doubt. It is rubbish, and though irritating, I'm much more bothered by the fluff/aesthetic changes than anything - and scarily, they're more likely to be long-lasting.


Edited by Lord Alisk, 30 July 2015 - 04:54 PM.


#23 Weezheat

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 05:29 PM


I suppose this is where I get worried. I actually wasn't all that bothered about AoS being pants - there's still 8th ed, and loads of other games, and I actually don't play that much anyway. What perturbs me a bit is that the look of the game is now so radically different, I seriously worry about what's going to happen with the miniatures I want to buy. I'm building up Empire, Goblin and Vampire armies alongside my Dwarfs (they're all hovering at 1000-1500 points at present), and I'm nervous that my nice 16th century German, mildly steam-punk Empire troops are going to vanish to be replaced with weird Blood Angels knock-offs, or the nice gothic-looking undead to be replaced with whatever those off Morghast models are meant to look like. And blowing up 30 years of lore was just weird. The richness of the lore is GW's biggest advantage over other companies - other companies are catching up in terms of miniatures quality, but in terms of lore they're not even close.

 

GW should appreciate that gamers play a setting much more than they play a game - they play Napoleonics more than they play Black Powder, they play WWII more than they play Bolt Action, good as these games might be. Blowing up the Warhammer World was a far stranger move than destroying the game, in my view.

 

Sorry, I'm rambling off. 

 

Very long post compressed to a short conclusion - I was willing to give the game the benefit of the doubt. It is rubbish, and though irritating, I'm much more bothered by the fluff/aesthetic changes than anything - and scarily, they're more likely to be long-lasting.

 

I have to be honest: These are 100% my thoughts and I think you conveyed it so well, that I honestly will copy paste. lol .

 

You have hit the nail in the head in many ways but the lore and aesthetic are my #1 issues here.

 

Last item I'll add, is that I understand fantasy wasn't selling well, but blowing up one of maybe 2 USP/Competitive advantages over the competition is absurd from a business persepctive. GW aside from what you could say is the back-end distribution that makes it work, has 2 big things: The 3o-year old IP and the quality of miniatures. They blew one up, and are focusing on the 2nd one, which I simply don't know if that;s enough to drive the business.

 

At least not in today's digital-first world. The partnership with CA for Total War is excellent, but blowing up that world before the game's release is plain dumb.



#24 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 06:01 PM

@ Mountain. Yea thats what i think they'll do. Though i wouldn't expect many changes to the core rules. I think the focus will be on campaign additions.

@ sgreg308, GW are not going all in on fantasy. They destroyed fantasy. They're going all in on AoS. Its very different. Also where are you seeing these new players? Nobody in my nearest FLGS is remotely interested, and in my local GW they're continuing with 40k as usual without blinking an eye. The fantasy guys have disappeared or switched to their 40k collections.

Edited by Krudd Kraggsson, 30 July 2015 - 06:02 PM.


#25 sgreg308

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 08:26 PM

@ Mountain. Yea thats what i think they'll do. Though i wouldn't expect many changes to the core rules. I think the focus will be on campaign additions.

@ sgreg308, GW are not going all in on fantasy. They destroyed fantasy. They're going all in on AoS. Its very different. Also where are you seeing these new players? Nobody in my nearest FLGS is remotely interested, and in my local GW they're continuing with 40k as usual without blinking an eye. The fantasy guys have disappeared or switched to their 40k collections.

AoS is fantasy now despite how bad you dont want that to be true. In my area there are plenty of people playing AoS, new players included. I was just at the local store a couple days ago and saw some vets painting up the new set and a game going between a guy I'd never met and an old school player. I mean I'm sorry your guys are not into it and sticking to 40k but here its the new hot item everybody is getting a piece of and alot of them really really like it. 20 plus year players saying they like it way better than 8th ed. Having said that, I agree with the lore aspect of it. Granted they have a long time to build a new lore up, I just am unsure as to how well it will live up its predecessor.

My problem lies mostly with games clunkiness in larger games. Its better imo for small unit type games (barring some of the rule issues which can be sorted out to an extent) but it seems extremely tedious for big epic battles w/o movement trays. The plus to this being that i have to spend less money to get a good game going. Also the way we treat it with the "silly rules", (i.e. grumbling to get bonuses) is we just remove the silly clause and allow the rule to remain in play w/o talking to your invisible horse or what have you.

Edited by sgreg308, 30 July 2015 - 08:38 PM.


#26 sgreg308

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 08:40 PM

All in all I think AoS is going to do pretty well and will shape up to be a decent game.

#27 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 09:37 PM

@ Mountain. Yea thats what i think they'll do. Though i wouldn't expect many changes to the core rules. I think the focus will be on campaign additions.

@ sgreg308, GW are not going all in on fantasy. They destroyed fantasy. They're going all in on AoS. Its very different. Also where are you seeing these new players? Nobody in my nearest FLGS is remotely interested, and in my local GW they're continuing with 40k as usual without blinking an eye. The fantasy guys have disappeared or switched to their 40k collections.

AoS is *the replacement for* fantasy now despite how bad you dont want that to be true.
Fixed that for you buddy.

I'm sure the anecdotal evidence will vary. In terms of overall, the Internet rage suggests AoS won't do well. But tbh GW aren't targeting old players with AoS, they are trying to bring in new people. They don't really care who they annoy and drive away so long as there is a net gain. We can debate until the cows come home whether AoS will succeed in doing this. For various reasons, my opinion is no. But its not beyond the realm of possibility that in some places AoS will flourish. It would be interesting to see in which countries/regions there is the most uptake/abandoning of AoS.

Edited by Krudd Kraggsson, 30 July 2015 - 09:43 PM.


#28 sgreg308

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 09:45 PM

@ Mountain. Yea thats what i think they'll do. Though i wouldn't expect many changes to the core rules. I think the focus will be on campaign additions.

@ sgreg308, GW are not going all in on fantasy. They destroyed fantasy. They're going all in on AoS. Its very different. Also where are you seeing these new players? Nobody in my nearest FLGS is remotely interested, and in my local GW they're continuing with 40k as usual without blinking an eye. The fantasy guys have disappeared or switched to their 40k collections.

AoS is *the replacement for* fantasy now despite how bad you dont want that to be true.
Fixed that for you buddy.

I'm sure the anecdotal evidence will vary. In terms of overall, the Internet rage suggests AoS won't do well. But tbh GW aren't targeting old players with AoS, they are trying to bring in new people. They din't really care who they "I swear too much" off so long as there is a net gain. We can debate until the cows cone home whether AoS will succeed in doing this. For various reasons, my opinion is no. But its not beyond the realm of possibility that in some places AoS will flourish. It would be interesting to see in which countries/regions there is the most uptake/abandoning of AoS.

I would like to see some numbers as well. But as for the Internet rage, that happens every time something like this occurs with warhammer. It always seems the anti (insert game changes here) crowd are the loudest at first but the truth is I can find just as much positivity towards it if not more as I can negativity. It just depends what searching for. That's not to say there aren't things worth complaining about I just think it's being exaggerated how bad everything is. That's all.

#29 Pellegrim

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 10:10 PM

Same old discussion here; fact is AoS is a different game, and alot of the main fanbase doesn't like it. It's not the question what is the new fantasy - both are! But AoS seems to fit small, non-competive games - and Wfb offers more depth but requires understanding more rules.
So it would be great if AoS brings in many new players - we all feel that would be great - but next months will have to prove this.

I just don't have a clear vision about how new players will experience the game; they're not used to intricate lists like 8th - but they might get annoyed by broken-ness AoS offered. And please don't argue that it's not broken - read the recent battle reports and youngsters reactions - many enthousiastic players get bummed out by the game. Can somebody give me a link to a positive battle report? I found a great thread on list synergy (is that the new word for list that works?), but no report to back it up.

Edited by Pellegrim, 30 July 2015 - 10:11 PM.


#30 sgreg308

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 10:41 PM

Same old discussion here; fact is AoS is a different game, and alot of the main fanbase doesn't like it. It's not the question what is the new fantasy - both are! But AoS seems to fit small, non-competive games - and Wfb offers more depth but requires understanding more rules.
So it would be great if AoS brings in many new players - we all feel that would be great - but next months will have to prove this.

I just don't have a clear vision about how new players will experience the game; they're not used to intricate lists like 8th - but they might get annoyed by broken-ness AoS offered. And please don't argue that it's not broken - read the recent battle reports and youngsters reactions - many enthousiastic players get bummed out by the game. Can somebody give me a link to a positive battle report? I found a great thread on list synergy (is that the new word for list that works?), but no report to back it up.


Nobody is arguing that there aren't broken aspects to the game. It's just not as bad as people seem to pretend it is. I've heard so many people say it's unplayable and that's absolutely a stretch. The fact is it has a ways to go before it can be considered competitive and that's totally fine. Its a completely new system and over time it will mold into something more sensible and eventually competetive capable. It's easy to make it competitive as it stands by simply writing a scenario. The difficulty then would lie in how to make it so each individual could bring an army and composition of their choosing but really even that wouldn't be too terribly difficult, it would simply be matter of effort, agreement and time on behalf of veteran players. Write up a story as to why this side has these restrictions and this side has those restrictions etc etc and then see how players work through it. All the armies have awesome abilities and units and the tactical aspect very in depth. It's got the potential.

From my observations thus far with new player experiences, I've seen alot of positivity. They usually come into it with no expectations (they haven't got any idea of what it's like) and walk away having had a good time (this is only the box set mind you). Could the broken aspects be annoying and force rage quit? Perhaps. Right now I'm seeing a big pull from the rpg community entering into the fray. Alot of people are very happy with the flexibility of the game and the ability to systematically create your own story over a vast numbers of battles and completely unique stuff to fit your desires. Which is cool but not inherently competitive...yet.

I'm sure over time this game will morph into something suitable for a comp environment. The older players, myself included, are vocal about imbalances and changes because we grew so attached to certain aspects of older editions (list building, rank and file combat etc.) And those things have been yanked away in a sense. We were all comfortable with the complexity and enjoyed the tight knit rules and we were already all in. Wed built an entire community around the old foundation and that foundation has been yanked out from under us. Its completely understandable that everyone is to some degree upset with the game and the warhammer interwebs are ablaze with rage and confusion. We have to build a new foundation for a new community and help turn AoS into something we can all love and enjoy.

The truth befoee is I couldn't get a single friend to get into the hobby cause of those things. I'm sure this was reflected in gee dubs sales. I was already in from the age of 12. It took me years to collect a playable army. It just was beyond reason as far as bringing new players to the base. They had to make a simple approach that grows in complexity the further into the hobby you get which I'd almost guarantee you is what's going to happen. But nevermind that, we'll just have to wait and see. The good news is AoS has a butt ton of growing to do and all the woes we have about it now
(summoning>_<) could and likely will change over time.

As far as positive battle reports and good strategy videos go, hit up youtube and just watch away. I watched several battle reps that were highly enjoyable over the last few days. There are plenty on there.

#31 Ragnavald Frostpeak

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 11:14 PM

Why does everyone these days want rule systems that are as basic as possible, almost to the point you don't even think anymore? I remember a time when people loved a game for its ability to replicate life or realistic outcomes. Even in video games they are dumbed down. It's as if your average gamer IQ is dropping year by year. AoS is the latest iteration of the degradation of quality gaming.

#32 sgreg308

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 12:26 AM

I'm with you and sympathize with alot of the over simplification woes but there is a lot of depth to the game in a tactical sense and to be fair, alot people aren't fond of the idea of spending hours flipping through rule books before during and after a game. Many people just want to get in there and play and have a good time. That doesn't mean they have a low IQ per se. Alot of us really enjoy indulging in the complexities of the hobby and spending hours modelling and painting and list building, surfing the forums, I mean essentially fully investing ourselves in it for hours on end. I have to tell you, we are a minority. That's the cold truth. Gee dubs does need to make revenue and they had to change their model from the ground up and that's what they are doing. Well see if they can make a product that makes us all happy in every way possible or not. In the mean time we just have to wait and do our thing.

#33 Pellegrim

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 05:59 AM

@Sgreg308 - you say you are sure that over time this game will morph into something that is competitive. There is just no way of being sure - and currently the prospects aren't good. I'll definitely check youtube, but would really like to see a positive report on this site. What I've seen on youtube is rather negative so far. What worries me is that people seem to dislike using the game for larger battles. Imo the game can suit smaller battles (but still require lot's of correction from it's current rules). Again, there is obivously a difference of opinion between former WFB players and newbies - but the next months will tell if the game draws enough attention and if it sticks.

So if you have played a great AoS battle, please post a report on it!

Anybody has any information on sales?

#34 Cuthbo

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:23 AM

My local store has 4 tables - 1 for Lord of the Rings, 2 for 40k and 1 small one for Age of Sigmar. I walk past it all the time (small town) and the Sigmar table is always always always empty of players and of interest. There are usually about 5 kids crowded round the 40k tables. Usually 1 bearded fellow browsing the paints. This is obviously purely anecdotal but the future of the game looks bleak, if only in my small town. 

 

I'm really surprised people are saying "it's ok as long as you edit the rules heavily". It's like going to a coffee place and they give you cold coffee and it has salt in it and it's not coffee it's actually made of bananas. It'll taste ok once you've warmed it up and sifted all the banana out......that'll be £4.50

 

Lord Alisk summed up my experiences of the game very well. 



#35 Helblindi

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:35 AM

Ah, but the rules are free. The question is just, do you wanna go through the process of sifting the banana out of your free coffee, heat it, and somehow cover up the taste of salt, or will you stick to yesterday's pot of coffee, hoping it won't go cold ;)



#36 Guest_Mountain_*

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 10:09 AM

I read some rumor that Khorne Bloodtide gonna get som release. But after that Skaven, but gonna GW release 40k or not between Khorne and Skaven? I think in spring GW had heavy 40k release with 2 new army and a lots of codex so perhaps GW go heavy in AoS now and in autumn.

#37 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 10:57 AM

I wonder how much all these AoS release will bother the 40k community. They're used to getting all the attention, so will a few months of focusing on AoS have a detrimental effect on 40k too.

My situation is also similar to Lord Alisk. And this is probably what bothers me the most about AoS, namely that many these huge changes shatter the essence of the game but were largely unnecessary. It would have been possible to change game mechanics and move to skirmish whilst retaining the lore of old warhammer, even if it meant jumping forward a few hundred years and having a post end times, chaos ravaged old world setting, to act as a reboot. You could even plausibly bring in the sigmarines without having to change existing armies.

Edited by Krudd Kraggsson, 31 July 2015 - 11:09 AM.


#38 Granitbeard

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 11:43 AM

I wonder how much all these AoS release will bother the 40k community. They're used to getting all the attention, so will a few months of focusing on AoS have a detrimental effect on 40k too.
 

 

Well I think that is GW's thinking. If they can get the 40k club to start looking at AoS stuff, maybe they will buy it. If only to use in their own armies of 40k.

 

Well so far me getting a game with anyone in the area is flat out not happening..... The local store still has all 4 boxes of the AoS release still sitting on their shelf, the next closest store (1.5 hours away) has sold two out of 5, people there play off and on, but it isn't pulling a ton of people in (the employee who was in charge of table top and very buy and play anything kind of mind, said he wouldn't support it and was fired from the store (no it isn't a GW only store, not sure how many of those are left in the USA)). Then the next closest store, 2.5 hours away, sold 1 box. So for me to get a game, I would have to drive 1.5 hours and try to pull one of a few guys away from warmachine or 40k.

 

They guys who play it say it is great, which is why I want to try and go get a game in with some of them and see what they say/think. So far they say things for it are fine as is, so I would probably go a little cheesy, Knight Bus everywhere with my Brets, and with my Dwarfs, probably 6 warmachines (since the internal balance of the game is "fin" according to them).



#39 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:07 PM

I feel sorry for the non-GW store owners who've probably had this shoved down their throat, and now have a load of stock that won't sell (nevermind that sales of their existing whfb stock will decline).

AoS limited edition STILL not sold out on GW webstore. Says it all really.

#40 Slembo

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:40 PM

. We have to build a new foundation for a new community and help turn AoS into something we can all love and enjoy.

 

 

No, we do not have to do that ;).

 

To borrow the excellent example from Cuthbo: Why do I have to learn to love and enjoy expensive salty banana fake coffee just because someone is trying to make it a new trend?

 

There is plenty (well, a few anyway) of options out there fortunately.







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