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Future Of Age Of Sigmar

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#1 Guest_Mountain_*

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 01:12 PM

I like AoS as casual gameplay. But after playing a lots I have hard times to see that it. I love create scenarios how I and my frined want it like "Last stand" with Dwarfs/Duardin and so on. But then I remeber rumors was it shall come larger rules book. But some claim that false and it will not come a brb for AoS with more detailed than four page. 

 

Then I can be honest say as i like AoS that I have hard to see it. I think AoS as now is good way get into the game fast and learn rules very quick to have fun. But in long way I dont think it is enough. I think some have judge very fast that AoS is doomed but AoS have not exist in a month yet (almost). 

 

Then I read it at; http://www.belloflos...-of-sigmar.html

 

"I also hazard a guess that there will be a more advanced ruleset for more tactical and strategic players who have outgrown the 4-page rules. I especially think we will see supplements for magic. Without any further rules development, I am not sure about the longevity of the game. Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design, and I am not quite sure these rules are there yet. To keep customers returning, games need long-term engagement, and that requires more depth to delve into. I think we will see this in the coming months." 

 

Which his statement which I think will be and feel logic (more intersing thing to read in the link). I think 4-page rules perfectly to begin with and warscrolls for all new player and veteran. But then after couple months a advanced rule book I think is needed to keep AoS alive in long-term run. And that edition 2 and so on can happens. 

 

But what about you who think 4-page rules and warscrolls is that. And GW will focus making models and not the game. Then I wonder why even make warscrolls and 4-page rules? 

 

What do you think? 



#2 Bimli

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 01:29 PM

to be honest without a comp system the game it self is not worth palying.... I understand that if you think someone is cheese then don't play him but why would a game be designed like that in the first place.

 

I think the game can do really well if some sort of point system came out and if some things were toned down a bit... summoning for example

 

Over all rules it is a fun game with huge potential.... as luck shoul dhave it all tourneys will comp it so I think based off that alone it will survive.



#3 Weezheat

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 01:35 PM

I have continued playing AoS as you have seen some battle reports from me and have played 2 more games since the last one, and I was actually thinking of doing a similar thread, so I will just reply here instead:

 

I have tried balancing with wounds and with the some of the new comp systems out there. The result is the same:

 

1) Who can summon/not get their summoner killed

2) Who wins the turn rolls

3) Who throws better dice in the middle mosh pit.

 

It's fun to play with the armies I have painted and "brought to life" per se. But when every game is the same, then replayability starts being an issue.

 

Once you follow the rules of AoS, such as shooting in CC, then it just truly becomes a mosh pit in the middle with not a whole lot of strategy. 

 

I gotta be honest, I don't miss the SvsT + armor modifier explanations. The new warscroll system works fine and is super easy to explain to newcomers.

 

But the comp system, the roll for turns and the shooting in CC makes it not so fun.



#4 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 01:37 PM

Simple is good, but they overdid it. They went from a monster rule book to 2 pages of rules (half of AoS is about terrain and terrain generation).

 

I've been checking out KoW (Mantic) and that's a interesting example of a rule book. Less complex than old school warhammer, but still 'meaty'. That's what GW should have gone for, IMO. The author of this book wrote 7th edition, so you can tell he learned a few things about accessability.

 

Was Warhammer too clunky? For hardcore mini-wargamers no, but I can see how it's WAY too much for mainstream gamers. But alas they went too far.

 

I'll keep an eye on GW to see if they do come out with more advanced rules.



#5 Pellegrim

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 01:49 PM

Think you could be right - think GW might have adopted a 'fail fast, fail often' business strategy. This means if AoS sells, they might expand it. This does not mean it will become a fun and playable game - but it could..

#6 Montegue

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 02:07 PM

I think the fundamental idea behind Age of Sigmar (not the fluff, which I think is pretty weak, but the core principles of bring what you want, everything is decent enough on the table to field, etc) was solid, but they severely dropped the ball in the name of simplicity. At this point, my unsupported guess is that they did so because they just didn't want to put money into testing and refining rules or into creating some sort of balance system for the game. 

It just feels very much like the product of a Yes Man echo chamber, where someone tries to argue that Unbound was the best thing to happen to 40k, so we need Unbound on crack for Fantasy and Marines or it will fail. 

If you look at how very fast the first End Times stuff sold, it's so very clear there was a deep hunger for investment and time put into new stuff for fantasy. And then the end times stuff went into a very bad, clearly silly direction, and it died out. The second the news hit the internet that the world was ending and Age of Sigmar was coming and it was 4 pages of rules and no balance at all, the bottom dropped out on the community. 

Can you imagine how good Age of Sigmar might have been had the rules been tight, had there been a legitimate balance system, and had the game been scalable from small unit play all the way up to large army play? The debates wouldn't be about how broken the game is and how to fix it and how you're a bad person if you think it's broken or a bad person if you love it. The community wouldn't be coming to electronic blows (or literal blows - yes, it's happened) over the game. 

Instead, we have a weak game and the end of a strong game that was showing it's age. Sigh. 

I really wanted Age of Sigmar to be a tight rules set with lots of options in terms of scale. I did. I wanted it to succeed even if it was a radical departure from 8th because it would mean I could still play my dwarfs as Warhammer dwarfs going forward. Now I have to try and shift my perception of them to Kings of War or my own system I'm working on or Avatars of War. It's still nice to see them on the table, but it's not the same. 

In terms of the game's future - 

I see a small group of very loyal GW Customers with a lot of extra hobby money in hand able to play this game. I see them becoming increasingly fanatical about it over time, looking around every new corner hoping for the game AoS should have been at the outset to materialize. I don't see much of an organized play scene developing around the game. 

I see indi game shops that invested in AoS pushing the game hard to try and turn a profit on their investment. I think they will ulimtately succeed in selling their initial order, but that the rest of it will probably die on the vine as organized play shifts largely to Kings of War (and possibly sticks with 8th, or moves to Ninth Age or Warthrone). 

Shops will go where the money is, so if they have a lot of energy and excitement for Mantic or Avatars, they will carry and sell it. 

I see GW looking at their investment in Age of Sigmar and having to make a choice. Cut it off, or produce a much better 2nd edition. If one good thing comes from this misadventure on GW's part, it's that they might have to follow in Wizards of the Coast's footsteps, put their hat in hand, and really get the community's feedback when they go back to basics and produce the Warhammer equivalent of 5th Edition D&D. 

 


Edited by Montegue, 29 July 2015 - 02:13 PM.


#7 Ragnavald Frostpeak

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 04:18 PM

AoS has no future and even its supporters question it. GW must be punished by boycott until they reverse the wrongs they have committed.

#8 Cuthbo

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 04:38 PM

Even if they expanded the ruleset and released a "meatier" rulebook, the game mechanics themselves are very poor indeed. I think on that point most people agree. So the future of this game is limited - they would be building on rotten foundations, right? Instead they would be better off releasing a new game with a mechanic that works, in my opinion.



#9 Pellegrim

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 05:14 PM

I think this review from Nerdhammer confirms the above. These guys make an effort to be neutral, but conclude it's doesn't even actually quallify as a game - but rather activity.

http://www.nerdhamme...-honest-review/

#10 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 08:25 PM

Think you could be right - think GW might have adopted a 'fail fast, fail often' business strategy. This means if AoS sells, they might expand it. This does not mean it will become a fun and playable game - but it could..

 

It might be more fair to say this is them doubling down on the "We're a models company, not a rules company" and so are just doing the minimum rules.

 

Which, IMO, is corporate suicide. Good models are key, but who the hell is going to spend $1000s of dollars just to collect miniatures? You will buy some if you are a collector, but it's RULES that drive large scale miniature purchases.
 

Seriously, what kept Mantic in business all these years? Sales of their models for people who used them for Warhammer, IMO. Now that they have the rules for large scale fantasy, they are getting a major bump.

 

I'm not trying to bash AoS here, I'm just stating what 'traditional' wargamers tend to expect. The Dota 2 generation is obviously gonna have different expectations. That's not a slap, that's just stating different perspectives exist.


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 29 July 2015 - 08:37 PM.


#11 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 09:59 PM

In answer to the original question, i reckon that the 4 page rules is it. I dont think there will be a big book adding depth. As it stands AoS is a full game. A deeply flawed and uninteresting game. But a game nonetheless. This is what GW have come up with and expect us to stomach. I think any rules additions will be in the form of narrative campaign supplements, that will be released to add to the setting and push new models, and maybe introduce some special rules useable in a specific context. But I doubt there will be more in terms of core rules.

It's been said elsewhere that a major advantage of AoS is that, being online, the rules can change and evolve at no cost to GW and so can be improved through customer feedback. However, i doubt GW will do this. The game is fundamentally flawed in so many ways that it shows they didn't really care that much about the rules in the first place. And its probably easier just to rip it all up and start again, rather than to trying to put a few bits of tape over the cavernous holes in the game.

#12 Ragnavald Frostpeak

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 10:14 PM

Guys, I just thought of another theory. Remember a while back GW hired a 'acquisition' expert? Perhaps what they are doing is remodeling all their assets to appeal to a major toy manufacturer, Like Hasbro or something, for a big buyout. By demonstrating that they could have traction with young kids by essentially turning their model line into action figures, they show Hasbro that their IP can mesh with their primarily child target demographic.

GW isn't just killing Fantasy Battle, they're selling the whole farm for one last big stock buyout.

#13 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 10:27 PM

I think to sell out and appeal to kids like that, they would need to start stocking pre-painted models.

#14 Ragnavald Frostpeak

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 10:31 PM

Maybe that's the next step...to be carried out by Hasbro.

#15 Karak 8 pints

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 10:38 PM

I have been out of the hobby for 3 years after playing for 15 years I've played both 40k and fantasy collected and played with 3 armies in each. The reason I left was the ridiculous price of rule books, army books and the models themselves. The one click bundles were the last straw for me I hate the way they tried ramming big orders down our throats without even the slightest discount.

I am back to try again after getting rid of all my armies. The old rules for both sets bugged me and my gaming group. You get rule x in your army book want to know what it does you need the big rule book. So you look and then x does y and z which you have to flip around in a massive rule book for. Fantasy became a slow monster that was expensive and too complex.

Aos has given me hope that they have decided to address some of these problems. I've started a small dwarf army and am slowly getting it together. I like the simplicity I like the way you have to mold the game a bit and give it your own touch. The free rules and warscrolls are great no more frantic searching for what your unit can do through 2 books. List building was fun but imo not a must have.

The only thing I've been concerned with is the pushing of the sigmarines and their pricing. Just the other day a glimmer of hope with expanding on the battalions for high elves and skaven. Perhaps this is the direction they will take, more synergy groups. If they build on them for the armies would be a good counter perhaps in the future. Campaigns may also be a good way to increase the longevity both from gw and making your own.

Gw keeping silent is frustrating it's always hard to live with the unknown. They could be planning to abandon the old armies to their fate or they could have new ideas and be actively trying to make the game more playable.

Edited by Karak 8 pints, 29 July 2015 - 10:40 PM.


#16 jouke1988

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 10:35 AM

I seriously think that somethin else is going on with the AoS release.

 

GW hasn't been making any money on the old models for a few years now. I talked with my shopowner yesterday and he told me that even he couldn't make a living out of the fantasy sales. Mostly because players have lost interest in buying and building new armies. GW even reconsidered to finish fantasy for good. But, to make money again, they came up with AoS. A new era with probably a new way of making models with new races. He couldn't confirm that this is just a sidestep or a full new version.

 

With my friend I discussed this as well and we came to the following conclusion:

 

1. AoS is a marketing method to get new people interested in the fantasy scene again

2. With the Total War: Warhammer game coming up, another group of new players will be interested in the whole Warhammer Fantasy scene.

3. After releasing the game and one or two updates we think they will come up with a 9th edition. That 9th edition will be a combination of the AoS rules and the 8th edition playing style.

4. Only we as players can keep the 8th edition alive. And only we as players can destroy this AoS. If we stop buying stuff, in short or long term the fantasy scene will end without a real conclusion.

5. Companies like WoA and other made the production of regular (older) units far less interesting for GW. They want to make something unique in stead of renewing old models.



#17 Bimli

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 12:42 PM

I think if GW wanted to keep making money they could of started releasing supplements to origianl army books that made way for formation and new units.

 

I'm not suggesting end times style as that was just crazyness.... but more new units... example a supplement to add a new unit of dwarfs maybe a new warmachine, a new unit, special character ect ect.



#18 jouke1988

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 12:53 PM

I think if GW wanted to keep making money they could of started releasing supplements to origianl army books that made way for formation and new units.

 

I'm not suggesting end times style as that was just crazyness.... but more new units... example a supplement to add a new unit of dwarfs maybe a new warmachine, a new unit, special character ect ect.

 

It's more like they want to get new players involved first. That's probably what AoS is doing. After that they will release new units...



#19 sgreg308

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 02:42 PM

I'm excited. Gee dubs is finally going all in and backing fantasy hardcore. I'd be really surprised if they didn't, at some point, add anything to the new rules. I'd be surprised if they didn't continue to pump out campaigns as well. I also think their strategy is working. I've seen alot of new players in the fantasy scene and even a few of the hardcore tourney players have been warming up to it.

#20 Guest_Mountain_*

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 03:52 PM

Perhaps we will not see big rules book. But perhaps instead of getting faq GW will update rules.





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