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How Are Dwarfs Looking With The New Rules/abilities?

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#21 Gregor Runesmith

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 04:08 PM

More importantly there is now a use for that mining cart from Skull Pass!  Even the mule gets a bite.  :cool:



#22 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 04:36 PM

Wanted to point out that Skinks have better Bravery than Thorgrim....

Our army seems to honestly be the least thought out. Each army seems to have a powerhouse character, ex. Archaon, Nagash, Franz, and so forth. Thorgrim pales in comparison.

If we are to win any games we will have to really think about our army list and know our opponents well enoughn to properly counter. Anvil seems like a must have along with Runesmiths.

#23 HoR

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 04:42 PM

Wanted to point out that Skinks have better Bravery than Thorgrim....

Our army seems to honestly be the least thought out. Each army seems to have a powerhouse character, ex. Archaon, Nagash, Franz, and so forth. Thorgrim pales in comparison.

If we are to win any games we will have to really think about our army list and know our opponents well enoughn to properly counter. Anvil seems like a must have along with Runesmiths.

Me and a good friend played a game with Lizards vs dwarfs.

 

I had Bugman Belegar, 10 IB, 10 LB, and 10 thunderers

He had a slann, an Oldblood, 10 Saurus, 10 Saurus, and 10 TG.

 

Although my IB unit with B and B destroyed a unit of Saurus his unit with the OB and other Saurus destroyed my longbeards, in the end we stopped at the end of the first combat phase because we found the game so unbalanced and stupid. Like the lizard men having immune to rend if it 2 or lower and summering stuff just makes them too much for Dawrfs to handle especially all the attacks from Saurus.

 

However, we are going to play a skirmish game using fantasy points and army books using lotr rules we think that it would work very well and much better, we will hopefully try it next saturday or sunday.



#24 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 04:47 PM

Me and a good friend played a game with Lizards vs dwarfs.

I had Bugman Belegar, 10 IB, 10 LB, and 10 thunderers
He had a slann, an Oldblood, 10 Saurus, 10 Saurus, and 10 TG.

Although my IB unit with B and B destroyed a unit of Saurus his unit with the OB and other Saurus destroyed my longbeards, in the end we stopped at the end of the first combat phase because we found the game so unbalanced and stupid. Like the lizard men having immune to rend if it 2 or lower and summering stuff just makes them too much for Dawrfs to handle especially all the attacks from Saurus.

However, we are going to play a skirmish game using fantasy points and army books using lotr rules we think that it would work very well and much better, we will hopefully try it next saturday or sunday.


Thanks for sharing. How did Belegar fair?

I have yet to hear of AoS Dwarfs winning a game...

I have no idea why GW added summoning Saurus to Lizardmen's army...

#25 HoR

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 04:52 PM

 

Me and a good friend played a game with Lizards vs dwarfs.

I had Bugman Belegar, 10 IB, 10 LB, and 10 thunderers
He had a slann, an Oldblood, 10 Saurus, 10 Saurus, and 10 TG.

Although my IB unit with B and B destroyed a unit of Saurus his unit with the OB and other Saurus destroyed my longbeards, in the end we stopped at the end of the first combat phase because we found the game so unbalanced and stupid. Like the lizard men having immune to rend if it 2 or lower and summering stuff just makes them too much for Dawrfs to handle especially all the attacks from Saurus.

However, we are going to play a skirmish game using fantasy points and army books using lotr rules we think that it would work very well and much better, we will hopefully try it next saturday or sunday.


Thanks for sharing. How did Belegar fair?

I have yet to hear of AoS Dwarfs winning a game...

I have no idea why GW added summoning Saurus to Lizardmen's army...

 

 

Belegar did quite well because he can attack twice meaning that he killed around 4 Saurus and is very good and not being hurt 3+ save and the shield of defiance halving wounds, I would actually say that Belegar is a quite a solid choice but I have not spent much time looking over the stats of other factions named characters.

 

The real issue with Dwarfs is that are units melt in combat to pretty much anything and will have very low rend hammerers have the same as Ironbreakers if I remember correctly.


Edited by Hero of Rome, 05 July 2015 - 04:59 PM.


#26 Gandulag

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 08:11 PM

Even though I'm not overly fond of this change and.... 'edition', I think there are a whole load of possibilities for list building... Granted there definitely needs to be some sort of balance to the game... as many have mentioned it's just broken. I think what we might see a lot of players do, if they end up playing AoS, is bringing a number of special characters/runelords (priests). A lot of our characters and Lords/Heroes have special abilities that they can use every Hero phase. So if we bring a number of these, many of our units can get +1 AS and a 6++, for the Runelords abilities. That, and if we position our BSB Thane in the back ranks, giving our troops immunity to battleshock tests... So we become tougher in combat, and don't run. I think movement becomes pretty important in this case, as the enemy will likely try and kill our BSB. We'll need to find a way to allow him to give a good bubble and yet not be too vulnerable. 

 

I'll still need to get a better grasp of the rules and have a few play-testing games to see where I can add further input/comment on how the community can maybe fix this brokeness....

 

I also noticed that Gyrocopters are not nearly as good as what they used to be..... Steamgun 6" range, everything within this range gets hit. Hmm, not bad you would think. "No models can be within 3" of enemy models".. so... our range is effectively 3". So... depending on how your opponent positions his units.. you can hit a single model... Nice.


Edited by Gandulag, 05 July 2015 - 08:32 PM.


#27 Granitbeard

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 08:37 PM

Yea from what I see, other then the Flame Cannon, we kind of got dumped on. I mean, we get worse save then some armies, lower Bravery and some of our units special rules are done better by other armies.... Kind of seems poopy to me, my Brets came out much better.



#28 Gandulag

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 08:47 PM

I haven't looked at the other armies much, so can't really comment on that. Based on our valor in our previous book, at first glance it seems pretty awful. I think it will just be mandatory to take an Anvil and a Runelord to each fight. Heck, based on balance you can bring several. But here me out. on a 2+ we get +1 AS from the anvil. Bringing that unit to a 3+ Probably one of the best saves in the game from what I've heard/saw. Get the Runelord to cast Forgefire, that unit is sitting on a 3+ 6++. If this unit is a unit of Ironbreakers, and take a charge, they're re-rolling their armor saves of 3+. Then you flank with a unit of Hammerers, or wtv, and deal some nice dmg. If you have a Dwarf Lord in there, or Belegar, you get an extra wound for each successful attack you made, if I'm reading that correctly. 

+Have that BSB in the area and you don't even need to care about Bravery anymore, they're unbreakable.

 

Of course I'm just saying this based off a quick read. But we can have a few potent combos. Also, you can have a single engineer within 3 Warmachines and they all benefit from it... it simply states that an engineer needs to be within 1"... He doesn't need to dedicate all his time to one, does he?

 

I think for the most part Heroes and Lords will play a big part in the game - their abilities is the main strategy behind the game now I think.

 

Time will tell.



#29 Gandulag

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 09:19 PM

I just read through the Wood Elf Compendium, as I collect them as well.... and it seems a bit ridiculous. One can bring as many Sylvaneth Wyldwoods as they want... in theory, covering the entire board. If that's the case, all enemy models need to roll every time they make a run or charge move, on 1's they're slain. Additionally, some models receive benefits by being close to these woods. 

 

Reading this I'm sure GW will come out with scenarios and the like, another attempt to make some money. 

 

Also, reading the Warhawk Rules, I'm under the impression that when fighting in CC models that are slain are taken directly from the front, or the closest to the attacker, as in 40k. This also makes sense with the pile in rule etc. The rule for the WHR states that if there are no enemies within 3" of the WHR after the combat phase, they can make a pile in move of 6"... Unless they want to imply that the WHR can decimate a unit entirely, which I doubt, units are taken from the front ranks. This makes quite a bit of sense to me, positioning and movement is that much more important now.



#30 Granitbeard

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:12 PM

 

Also, reading the Warhawk Rules, I'm under the impression that when fighting in CC models that are slain are taken directly from the front, or the closest to the attacker, as in 40k. This also makes sense with the pile in rule etc. The rule for the WHR states that if there are no enemies within 3" of the WHR after the combat phase, they can make a pile in move of 6"... Unless they want to imply that the WHR can decimate a unit entirely, which I doubt, units are taken from the front ranks. This makes quite a bit of sense to me, positioning and movement is that much more important now.

 

Except under Inflicting Damage section of the Rules:

 

After all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wound that are inflicted to models  from the unit at they see fit (the models don not have to be within range or visible to an attacking unit).....

 

Bret Pegasus Knights have a similar double charge rule if there are no enemies with in a certain distance.


Edited by Granitbeard, 05 July 2015 - 10:13 PM.


#31 Gandulag

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:30 PM

I stand corrected, hm.. I'm a bit dissapointed by that rule then. Maybe they'll primarily be used to hunt single, or diminished targets.

Thanks for the clarification!

#32 Titaniumbeard

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for all the replies! Could someone do a summary what we're having that is better than any other faction/race? Flame cannon seems pretty good and so on?  :detective:



#33 Gamlith

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 04:10 PM

Pretty bad when you see Helf being able to table dwarf now....

 

 

Maybe a different combo would have been better and with rules being remembered.....trying to be optimistic.



#34 Granitbeard

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 04:17 PM

Don't have time to watch the whole things, or hear it (no speakers at work), but yea tw0 warmachines and some Warriors wont hold up to much. Particularly the eagle and chariot, which both would be target number one for the cannon.



#35 Gandulag

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 04:24 PM

@Gamlith,

 

To be fair that wasn't an evenly matched battle at all. As has been mentioned by others, it's essentially elite units, which are already strong as is, against core units for the dwarfs. Interesting none the less.



#36 Grumpgrim

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 04:34 PM

The battlereport was about 610p vs 960p in 8e points, so surprise the elfs won.

 

 

But even then, there are plenty of matchups in 8e where an inexperienced list builder will get steamrolled by someone who understands how to build lists. New kid in 8e didn't realise you need 1-2 spellbreaker smiths and a rune BSB? He'll get plastered by magic, but that means his list was bad not that 8e dwarfs are bad. He needs to be taught the meta.

I expect the same in AoS, with the exception that no one has a grasp on what the meta might look like. Even less so considering GW is withholding list building rules.

Also, the completely changed rules mean things cannot be used like before. For example the flame cannon changed from template to d3/d6 autowound and is now a great character sniper instead of horde killer. I suspect several other things must be unlearned. Should you bring a cannon against a giant, or a dragonslayer hero?


Edited by Grumpgrim, 06 July 2015 - 04:38 PM.


#37 Gandulag

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 06:50 PM

 

Also, the completely changed rules mean things cannot be used like before. For example the flame cannon changed from template to d3/d6 autowound and is now a great character sniper instead of horde killer. I suspect several other things must be unlearned. Should you bring a cannon against a giant, or a dragonslayer hero?

 

This just made me realize, you can essentially counter the enemy units as you begin deploying.... You bring a good chunk of your models, but only field units based on what the opponent fields. He places X, oh good you brought Y to counter that, but he has Z to counter your Y!

 

Hmm, this can make for a very interesting game/concept. I'm interested on play testing myself. 



#38 Titaniumbeard

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:04 PM

Pretty bad when you see Helf being able to table dwarf now....

 

 

Maybe a different combo would have been better and with rules being remembered.....trying to be optimistic.

 

I dare say the dwarf player made some really foolish decisions during that game and it wasn't favored to the dwarf anywhere, it was basically as someone else pointed out elites vs cores. Might as well put 20 sphinx vs 20 warriors and call it a fair game because the model count is the same. The new " point system " is incredibly poorly designed and the " triumph " system relies way to much on trust. 8th edition forever or a new fan-made book/future 9th edition. 



#39 Granitbeard

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:56 PM

 

 

Also, the completely changed rules mean things cannot be used like before. For example the flame cannon changed from template to d3/d6 autowound and is now a great character sniper instead of horde killer. I suspect several other things must be unlearned. Should you bring a cannon against a giant, or a dragonslayer hero?

 

This just made me realize, you can essentially counter the enemy units as you begin deploying.... You bring a good chunk of your models, but only field units based on what the opponent fields. He places X, oh good you brought Y to counter that, but he has Z to counter your Y!

 

Hmm, this can make for a very interesting game/concept. I'm interested on play testing myself. 

 

 

Which there in lies a problem with it to me. If you put down something and I can just willy-nilly pick an AWESOME counter to it, how is that fair? particularly if I have my whole 17k 8ed points of dwarfs with me and you only have a total 3k 8ed points of your army?.



#40 Gandulag

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 08:33 PM

@Granitbeard,

 

Ah yes, I see your dilemma. In the instance of 17k vs 3k, I don't believe anyone will ever be in that situation... If you are that ungentlemanly and decide to field 17k points I doubt anyone will ever play with you again (You being whoever decides to field such a massive force), unless it's 17k vs 17k. If you mean the option to choose anything of your 17k force... well, I'm sure there's a lot of redundancy so I don't think it's that HUGE of an imbalance per se... though I could be wrong. 

 

I think that it can bring a fun and tactical aspect to the table, say my opponent drops a monster, hmm alright a cannon can do well against that. He will likely drop some units to take out my cannon asap, where I then decide to drop something in my backline to fend it off - I see it being similar to chess, you need to think a few moves ahead of your opponent to get the upper hand.

 

Again though, I haven't played AoS and I'm just theorizing. 







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