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Age Of Sigmar And The Future Of Bugmansbrewery

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#21 Lognjen

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:12 AM

I played a few games with it and dont like a game with no point sistem. I will continue playing 8th edition. May our axes stay sharp.

#22 McGrumpy

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 02:25 PM

I played a few games with it and dont like a game with no point sistem. I will continue playing 8th edition. May our axes stay sharp.

 

Use 100 Wounds as your limit.

 

One wound = 1 point



#23 Montegue

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 04:04 PM

Doesn't actually balance anything out. The Warscrolls themselves are hideously out of balance relative to the way the rules work. Monstrous infantry are the first culprit. Each individual Irongut, for example, is a legitimate threat to a Dwarf Lord. The difference in output is *one* wound and a pip of to-hit and rend. If the irongut goes first there's a very very good chance that just *one* of them will kill the Lord outright. 



#24 Khazadson

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 11:10 AM

 

I played a few games with it and dont like a game with no point sistem. I will continue playing 8th edition. May our axes stay sharp.

 

Use 100 Wounds as your limit.

 

One wound = 1 point

 

 

 

So a Dwarf and a Goblin are equal?

 

This just wont work. There are a lot of reasons, but the above is a decent enough example.



#25 Montegue

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 01:23 AM

Doesn't even come close to working because of how some models can put out more damage than others pound for pound. It's a mess.

#26 jouke1988

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 10:43 AM

Doesn't even come close to working because of how some models can put out more damage than others pound for pound. It's a mess.

 

I'd agree with you on that however I will not in this case. I have spoken with my shopowner last week and he assured me that there is going to be a balancing system. However we will have to wait for it a little longer. This, the system we have now, is not working, I'll agree on that.



#27 McCrae

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 10:15 PM

Hi Bugman, Would we be able to get a new forum for the 9th age. It looks like a very positive move in keeping the community together?



#28 Bugman

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 06:01 PM

There are several "New" editions that have appeared out of the woodwork. 9th is one of them and if people express enough intrest I shall do, but at present, its just one of many and can be discussed in the warhammer section.

 

Bugman



#29 Old Dwarf

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:09 AM

Well at least AoS got me here, I was reading about all the changes (I rather enjoy really creative flaming)

on another forum that referenced BB. Great to see a dedicated Dwarf Site.

 

OD


Edited by Old Dwarf, 01 August 2015 - 11:13 AM.


#30 Sherman

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 11:23 PM

Ok, so I came here to pimp my new site (www.forceorg.com) and hopefully get some traction for making Age of Sigmar a more playable game. I have to say that over all the forums I've been visiting, this one is the most depressing. I don't see the posts about "Age of Sigmar isn't that bad" like I do everywhere else (granted I haven't dug very far...) Very dwarfy! I love it. I too do not love what I've seen GW do to Warhammer. It's super sad. I own a game store and always had visions of getting to a point where the store was going really well on its own and I'd get to sit down and play lots of Warhammer someday, that seems pretty unlikely at this point. I also love the comment about maybe this is a "New Coke" ploy by GW! Let's hope.

 

Anyway, here's my pitch about AoS, and honestly, I hope that I'm able to help create a new points system for gaming in general, if that's not too bold a statement.

 

I’m here to introduce a new site, ForcOrg.com. Age of Sigmar has introduced an opportunity that no other publisher has offered and I hope the community joins me in taking advantage of it. For years I’ve believed that miniature game balance could be better done by the community as a whole rather than any small group of playtesters hired by the companies that produce the miniatures. To that end, I offer up ForceOrg.com.

 

The goal is simple, crowdsourced game balance. I have a belief that there are no good or bad models, only poorly pointed ones. For the right price, every model should be viable and no model should be an “auto-include”. So we’ve put together a site to create the opportunity to test that theory. Please check it out!

 

www.forceorg.com

 

We are setting things up in the same way as list building sites. Age of Sigmar is just the beginning. GW decided the community should decide how to balance the game, so it’s a great place to begin. However, Age of Sigmar was not the original idea and hopefully won’t be the end of it. Any miniature game can be hosted and judged by the community. Get tired of seeing the same lists at every event or never getting to play with your favorite models because there is something obviously better for the points? Help change the meta.

 

All you have to do is get on, and vote on the models you know. You can vote them up, down, or even to have them stay the same. All we ask is that you be sincere in your voting. What about the guy who sincerely thinks his army sucks and everyone else’s is way better? Well, that’s one person’s vote. Hopefully enough people are willing to make informed decisions to make this work. We do have a plan to deal with obvious trolls, but we really are expecting to have little to no issue with that.

 

So we’re looking for fans. Fans of Age of Sigmar to start, and ultimately fans of every game. No game has nailed the perfect point system that makes games feel balanced, and really, it’s not likely to ever happen. At the end of the day, people’s choices in game matter and that’s something that is impossible to quantify. What we can do it look for broad data samples. If it was possible to get everyone to report their games and army make-ups, we’d do that. Since that’s not an option, the next best option is to survey the player base.

 

How do you feel your match-ups are going? Is the orcish footsoldier on par with the elvish one? Is the cannon getting its value every game? Feel like one model took out half an army? Let us know! You don’t have to pick a point value. We’ll just bump it a little if we get enough votes saying it needs to go up. Then wait until we see votes saying it needs to go up further still, or maybe just happy where it’s at.

Talk about the models you know about. You could spend hours doing the math and seeing who’s superior, or watching games to see how certain abilities work in play (we certainly have!) but ultimately that’s not the goal. We just want to hear about your experience in the snippets it comes in. We’ve set up a reddit to discuss these things. We’re not trying to get anyone off the message boards they enjoy, we just want people to see when someone has something to say about the points of a particular model. It’s incorporated right into the site. See a model getting a lot of attention? Check out the reddit and see what’s up. We’re encouraging people to share their experiences there and hopefully lead the discussion towards the change they want to see. Again, you only get one vote on any given model. If you really think it needs to change, you might have to convince a few people as to why that is…

 

Anyway, check it out. The points are just a start. There is no promise they’re remotely balanced, that’s not the point. The point is to have your voice heard and keep the meta evolving. Let us know what you think!

Sorry if this comes off as spammy. To work we need all the input we can get!



#31 Grim1

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 01:00 AM

Excuse my candour, but I think that AOS is a game that Games Workshop can't even make work in their own shops???

Any game that can be improved by an amateur, is too amateurish for me to play.

There are better games, being developed by better games developers and I see GW as producers of "quality" miniatures instead of quality games.

if it were any other game developer, this game wouldn't even make base 1.

 

"New startup company Work Gameshop has released a new set of rules for a game they call Sage of Igmar. The rules are available for free online and are a quick read at only 4 pages. Unfortunately, that's where the praise stops.

Sage of Igmar (SoI) borrows heavily from the Warhammer theory of game design - roll a d6 and try to score above a certain number - but without any of the strategic elements that give certain units an advantage in a fight. When your army fights, it fights with a static score, and the opponent defends with a static score. Your knights are just as effective against your opponent's knights as they are against his archers.

With the lack of strategic matchups between units, maneuverability has taken a back seat as well. Fortunately, the game designers foresaw this and decided to remove the movement impediments that were a staple of Warhammer (e.g. cohesive fighting units, lines of sight, and combat lock). Unfortunately, this has the side effect of further removing strategic decisions from the game.

The game features one final innovation over classic Warhammer: removing limitations on army composition. For those unfamiliar with Warhammer, your army must consist of a single faction and be under an agreed-upon points limit (where points for each model are given in various army books). SoI has done away with these limitations. There are no limitations whatsoever on what you bring to the table. If you show up with a unit of 10 knights, I can show up with a combined horde of 100 Chaos Bloodblooders and 50 Religious Metal Spacemen allied against your puny force. Certainly players could agree on certain army limitations before the game, but forcing players to create their own limitations to have an enjoyable game seems both presumptuous and contrary to the spirit of the rules.

Ultimately, this game is a disaster. It borrows too heavily from Warhammer to be an independent game, but lacks any of the balancing elements that the Warhammer rules provided. The designers seemed to avoid all of the problems with the existing Warhammer ruleset (of which there are many), by simply removing the offending portions with no regard to how they affected the game.

If you're looking for a large-scale miniatures game and SoI appeals to you, then I'd suggest picking up a copy of Warhammer instead."



#32 Sherman

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 04:37 AM

I really hope I'm the amateur you're referring to! I'd love to think I might be able to improve something... I do have 35 years of game play cred, and owned a pretty sweet retail store for ten of those years, even have a second location. I have put a lot of work into figuring out how to make things go and have more ideas to boot. Even if you're not down with AoS I hope you give my site a shot. It could ultimately keep the meta for 8th edition alive with balancing of points and introduction of "home brew" models and arrangements. Something to think about...

 

I too have a lot of beef wit AoS, just trying to salvage what I can. 



#33 Strongbeard_Liam

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 05:34 AM

Sounds like you put a lot of work into this Sherman so I tip my hat to you sir. However, I think your time might be better invested in helping 9th edition, it's been gaining ground and has a lot of the same components you are after

#34 Ozariig

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 07:18 AM

@Sherman fascinating experiment. I like how its applicable to any wargame that is (or could be) balanced via points. Good production values on the website too, so colour me impressed.

 

I'm not into AoS, but I'll be following the subreddit to see where this goes.


Edited by Ozariig, 30 September 2015 - 07:18 AM.


#35 Dorrin

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 09:27 AM

Just to throw my beard in  :thumbup:

 

Played a few games of AoS now.  We used a points system (wounds just doesnt work, why would you take any lesser "cheaper" units?) and it has been a blast.  Really want to see where they are going with it though.  Mind, I think you do need the "beer and fun" mindset and not tournament.



#36 Grim1

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 06:50 PM

The NO points/wounds/gamebalance idea was just GW taking even less responsibility over their game than when they refused to answer faq questions from their game-playing customers.

Anyone investing time, for free, to redress this has my respect for their efforts, but if the parent company doesn't care for it's offspring then that game is doomed to die.

And Games Workshop isn't about designing games but SELLING miniatures. The bells toll....







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