32 replies to this topic

[Pellegrim]

Hello Dawi.

 

I love GW wielding bearded dawi to smash my opponents, preferably stoic ones. Unless you are fighting unbreakable or stubborn unit's, combat resulotion is everything in close combat. Then I was reading through the army book, and started thinking about the Rune of Battle. Because our special unit's are excellent by themselves, I focussed on core, mainly Longbeards. Taking a unit of longbeards, add a BSB with one Rune of Battle and adding a Thane BSB with two Runes of Battle and Grugni (survivability), will give the unit +5 combat resulotion without lifting a weapon. A unit of 22 of these boys will cost you 600 point, which is not cheap  (bit cheaper with shields instead of great weapons). I think they should be ran with shields, so they become 4+/5+or6+ (and 5+ versus shooting). If you run them 7 wide, the 14 supporting attacks will probably do some wounds, so combat resolution will always be +7 to +10, which is incredibly hard to match, for any unit. They will attract of sorts of madness, because of this. I think they should be ran next to a unit of hammerers, who also attract a lot of madness, since oppenents are scared sh!tless of hammerers. The way I figure, an opponent can not avoid two blocks, since they will need to collect points. Of course these block will have to protected by your artillery unit's and a few gyrocopters. This just looks so nice, but there is probably stuff that will smash this set-up. I just can't think of any at them moment. I'm looking for weaknesses in this setup, what could be tough for this combination to encounter? What unit will not bounce off of them? Are there many stubborn unit's out there?

 

Pellegrim

 

 

Edited by Pellegrim, 06 April 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[Bimli]

Hello Dawi.

 

I love GW wielding bearded dawi to smash my opponents, preferably stoic ones. Unless you are fighting unbreakable or stubborn unit's, combat resulotion is everything in close combat. Then I was reading through the army book, and started thinking about the Rune of Battle. Because our special unit's are excellent by themselves, I focussed on core, mainly Longbeards. Taking a unit of longbeards, add a BSB with one Rune of Battle and adding a Thane BSB with two Runes of Battle and Grugni (survivability), will give the unit +5 combat resulotion without lifting a weapon. A unit of 22 of these boys will cost you 600 point, which is not cheap  (bit cheaper with shields instead of great weapons). I think they should be ran with shields, so they become 4+/5+or6+ (and 5+ versus shooting). If you run them 7 wide, the 14 supporting attacks will probably do some wounds, so combat resolution will always be +7 to +10, which is incredibly hard to match, for any unit. They will attract of sorts of madness, because of this. I think they should be ran next to a unit of hammerers, who also attract a lot of madness, since oppenents are scared sh!tless of hammerers. The way I figure, an opponent can not avoid two blocks, since they will need to collect points. Of course these block will have to protected by your artillery unit's and a few gyrocopters. This just looks so nice, but there is probably stuff that will smash this set-up. I just can't think of any at them moment. I'm looking for weaknesses in this setup, what could be tough for this combination to encounter? What unit will not bounce off of them? Are there many stubborn unit's out there?

 

Pellegrim

 

The unit would be good so long as it is supported by artillary as you stated. LB are a good unit ws5 s4 t4 I guess the challanges they would have would be great weapon weilding things and also cheapo scaven to hold them up.

 

or steam tanks... basically anything that can hold them up or white lions.

 

Mind you LB are not cheap with a shield they are 13 points a pop so 1 unit lets say 28 strong 7x4 full command and banner of battle is around 429 points

 

Id say the units only real worries would be magic any iniatiave based spell, dwellers, the metal magic one that on a 5+ things die units like that become a traget for those spells and mass damage templates (scaven cannons)

 

oh and eleven avoidence lists

[Zidane_blade]

I'd run shieldbeards in bus formation, including a defensive lord to absorb damage and, if wanted, spiced with stromni red beard from the Hammerers.
That's nine CR right there.

[Montegue]

If you want this unit to win, it 

 

1) Has to get into combat

 

2) Has to win that combat. 

I don't think you need the Runes of Battle to get that done. You need to create active combat res and prevent their active combat resolution. 

Some options - 

definitely the lord. He will take up two file's worth of models, and simultaneously provides 4 additional attacks on top of the ones made up for by the shield bearers. 

You could take a runelord or a runesmith and give them the Fiery Ring of Thori and possibly a great weapon and MR of Gromril or a 2+ armor save. Season to taste. Hold that ring until you're in the combat that will turn the game, and unleash it for an additional handful of wounds. 

Your Thane can hold his own with just a handweapon, shield, grungni, etc. He will die to concerted effort, though. So, recognize that, and if you're loading him up with a Rune of Battle or two, his death means more points for them. 

You need that unit to be stubborn. Even with a ton of combat res bonuses, you can be flanked and beaten (-3 ranks +up to three for them, means a big swing in resolution, not to mention the loss of parry saves to the flank. 

S4 kills very little but grinds decently, so long as you have armor piercing up from a runesmith/lord. on the charge, it kills as well as our old Great Weapon units used to kill back in the day. 


So, you could go with - 

Lord. I'd go with SBs, and either the Snori/Might/Parry combo (or something similar) or just a great weapon and a tanky as hell build (Iron 2, Stone, Warding 3). 

Runelord - Stone, Fort 2, Dispel Rune, Fiery Ring, and maybe something worthwhile on his weapon. Or, a great weapon, MR of Gromril, a dispel, and a ring. Other runes to taste. 

BSB - Shield, Grungni, maybe a rune of battle? Or perhaps your stoicism here? I don't reccomend losing his attacks though, so don't hide him. 

You could add a second runesmith if you want but it's not necessary. 

This would give you 14 swings at S4, 4 Swings at your Lord's strength (whatever that is, leaving you with 18 attacks going forward). They hit on 3s against most targets, wound on 4's or 3s against most targets,etc. Enemies have to distribute on round one, meaning they might manage a wound or two (one to the champ, maybe one to a hero). Pop your fiery ring for another 3-4 wounds. 

You should win combat against most enemy units, but will you win by a lot? Hard to say. Depends on the enemy. You get three ranks, two banners, and whatever you earn in close combat. 

I just don't think you have room for Runes of Battle when the unit needs to be stubborn. Now, if you've got hammerers projecting the Groth One Eye banner, then I can see a use for runes of battle. Especially in a closed list environment. 

[Pellegrim]

Monti,

 

your second rule is exactally why I think three runes of battle would work! 

 

And the unit you are discribing is a monster unit with a hero-line, absolutely great, but what, 350 + 200 + 100 + 150 = 800 points? Mildly more than my + 5 combat resolution unit, which gives me the chance to chip in two gyro's and make sure I hit in the front.

 

The argument that the BSB dies easy is a very big one ... that wil just hurt to much and is a real soft spot for this idea. T5 AS3+ WS4+ can handle some damage, but only two wounds ..... arghh. 

 

 

Bimli,

 

yeah, so there are some unit's that just don't care about high combat res... let's hope the Gyro's can play their part there.

 

 

Zidane,

 

How do you figure you get to +9 cr.? 

 

 

 

[Zidane_blade]

In bus, I figure you have enough for three ranks. Those, a banner and a BSB, two battles on BSB with a single on the unit banner, and finally stromni on the Hammerers.
The Lord is there to both prevent CR in the enemies favour, as well as keeping the three ranks.

[Bimli]

I guess the issue would be chaf yes our units are strong but are also slow not very manuverable. lets say were 24" away from the enemy thats a min of 4 turns to actually reach our intended destiniation. So if your opponent is smart they'll feed the 2 units things that either 1 they don't care about or 2 are also crazy strong them selves or 3 stubborn/unbreakable

 

the above will be your weakness (magic and other shenanegians not included) and yes gyros should play their part but unless your someone like me that run's 6 gyros then you might have a hard time.

 

Comes down to what army your playing against

 

BSB with grungi is not that easy to kill imo ws6 t5 4+ followed by 4++ means he can take a hit but yes how you have your bsb decked out he will be a target and also he is a big chunk of points so even if you beast a unit back he might get killed espically if your fighting things with GW.... Id tell you this if that unit was to charge my GW dwarf warrior unit there would be minimum 4 swinging at him.  

 

your getting +5 due to 2 rune of battle (i guess really 3) and 2 banners keep in mind that anyone else you fight will probably have a banner also maybe even 2 also (bsb). 

[Pellegrim]

In bus, I figure you have enough for three ranks. Those, a banner and a BSB, two battles on BSB with a single on the unit banner, and finally stromni on the Hammerers.
The Lord is there to both prevent CR in the enemies favour, as well as keeping the three ranks.

 

Haha - yes I see, exactly. I'm really curious to see that build versus the famous units-of-mighty-unbalance, like wiitch elves and phoenix guards..... Oh mmm they are unbreakeble right .... ?

 

@ Bimli - Yes, getting them in combat is key. And avoiding unbreakable stuff indeed. Not worried about stronger stuff, they will fail (if not stubborn etc.).  Anyway, I might try it in a battle versus WoC soon. For me it's this or a hero-line, the other choice I really really  like. Like a chunk of steel with a titanium shock-absorber.

 

+ 3 extra combat res will just disappoint so many opponents, they'll be like "what ...? How did you come by 9? + 2 banners, + 2 ranks, + 2 wounds and +3 EXTRA BANNERS???? Get out of here beard".

Edited by Pellegrim, 06 April 2015 - 07:04 PM.

[Pellegrim]

We play a lot of 1.500 games (slowly expanding..), and is my Rune of Battle list.

 

113 Smith, RoSpellbreakingX2, stone, shield

223 Thane BSB, RoBattleX2, RoGrugni, shield

377 24 Longbeards, shields, fc + roBattle

328 22 Hammerers, music. + sb

145 Canon, RoForging

150 Organ Gun, RoAccuracy, RoBurning

80 Gyro

80 Gyro

 

credo: shoot, annoy, shoot, annoy, shoot, PUNCH!

 

Edited by Pellegrim, 06 April 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[kelvenmore]

The biggest concern for me here is steadfast while you might win most combat, chances are you won't do much damage, not enough to break steadfast units.

This might be a great strategy for warriors that are substantially cheaper. You can get buy much more, enough to break most units steadfast and win by CR.

[Pellegrim]

And do you think 2 gyro's, a canon and an organ gun can solve that problem? PS are frenzied unit's steadfast? 

[kelvenmore]

And do you think 2 gyro's, a canon and an organ gun can solve that problem?

No

PS are frenzied unit's steadfast?

No there are two ways to be steadfast. To be stubborn (always steadfast), or to have more ranks than your opponent.  You lose steadfast if your unit ranks fall equal to or below the ranks of the enemy unit.

In your example you have 24 Shildbeards (Longbeards with shields), if you go 5 wide you only get 3 ranks and 4CR. But after only 5 casualties you will be a 3CR and after that 2CR.

For the same points you get 38 ShildWarriors (Warriors with shields). You get 6 ranks but still only have 3 CR. It will take you losing 15 warriors before you drop below 3CR. However you will break most folks stead fast or be steadfast in the event you still lose CR. With the larger number you can play the CR ranks or go hoard formation.

Edited by kelvenmore, 08 April 2015 - 01:49 AM.

[Zidane_blade]

While I agree that warriors are highly underestimated, I think you're more likely to do wounds with Longbeards, rather than warriors, in this example. Then you can have all the ranks you want, but if you don't counter the CR the enemy will get against you...
On another note, you don't lose steadfast while getting disrupted. You just lose the rank bonuses.

[kelvenmore]

While I agree that warriors are highly underestimated, I think you're more likely to do wounds with Longbeards, rather than warriors, in this example. Then you can have all the ranks you want, but if you don't counter the CR the enemy will get against you...

Yes I prefer LB but I usually run them with GW and Stoic banner I don't usually care about ranks I'm in it for the grind.. In this scenario, the OP is trying to edge out with CR from the RoB.  I've ran some scenarios: GreatWarriors,ShieldWarriors,GBeards,SBeards against some of the best HE units (Phonix/White lions/ChaosWarriors).  They were all close GreatWarriors seem to do better since they kept the CR close and kept the 3CR on ranks.  One variation I added was putting a third RoB to give the extra rank.  That really helps but the downside is the BSB is 3+/6++ not 3+/4++.  

 

... you don't lose steadfast while getting disrupted. You just lose the rank bonuses.

Well that's embarrassing   . Worst part is I knew that already not sure why I posted that.

[Montegue]

Why not Ironbreakers?

They prevent more Combat Resolution from the enemy, and you can stack just as much on them in terms of Runes of Battle. 

[Pellegrim]

 

While I agree that ..............get against you...

Yes I prefer LB but ...............ps but the downside is the BSB is 3+/6++ not 3+/4++.  

 

... you don't lose steadfast while getting disrupted. You just lose the rank bonuses.

Well that's embarrassing   . Worst part is I knew that already not sure why I posted that.

 

 

Exactly, this is the precise opposite of depending on steadfast: it's making unit's bounce off the metal hammer. So steadfast enemy unit's are terrible for this strategy. Great weapons would help, in that case.

 

@Monti: Ironbreakers would be very good here, but you need hammerers to pair up this battle-star unit. Opponents fear hammerers in close combat more than Ironbreaker IMO. The whole idea is that most opponents pick on the longbeards in close combat before facing the hammerers (or breakers). This strategy balances out the longbeards in term of combat results. A hero line is the other option that balances out longbeards. 

[Montegue]

Ah, but if they don't fear the Ironbreakers, and then realize what it means to be down 7-9 CR against Ironbreakers before combat even begins...

[Pellegrim]

Tried it yesterday with a list with no artillery and only one Strollaz rune, versus a pretty competitive WoC list. I lost (partially to a very stupid deployment move that resulted in my 19 Irondrakes not contributing to the actual battle - ouch) and learned how to futher tweak the list.

 

I played:

Smith, RoStone, Shield, 2 RoSpellbreaking (with longbeards)

Thane, BSB, shield, RoGrugni, 2 RoBattle (with longbeards)

Longbeards (22), Great weapons, Full command, RoBattle (will up this to 29 bodies)

Hammerers (20), Music.&SB

Irondrakes (19), RoStrollaz (will bring this down to 12 bodies)

Gyro's (2)

 

He played:

Big block of Nurgle warrior, with Exalted BSB en Death mage

Charriots (2), some options

Chaos knight of Khorne, some options

Hell cannon

Dogs

 

We chose ETC2015 table 6 as a battle field. I wanted my death star longbeards to be straight opposite of his warriors, or anything else. I deployed gyro-longbeards-hammerers-gyro-LAKE-irondrakes. He deployed dogs-knights-chariot-warriors-chariot-hellcannon. Vanguarded my drakes up to be in reach of the hellcannon. I send one gyro up to annoy his knights, that worked fine. The other gyro landed next to his canon. Marched up my combat blocks. He moved up (except with units that were blocked by my gyro) and shot his hellcannon. WTF. Big template of S5 hits? Really? He took 50% of the longbeards off - bye bye death start. My drakes shot the cannon, but hitting on six, wounding on 5 or 6, 5+ ward save, I think I did a one wound. These drakes were miles away from where the action was. He couldn't make a safe charge, so he placed his units so that he was "safe". My gyro charged his cannon, and stuck around till end turn 5 . My (halved) death start charged his warriors, these guys were so eager they make the 13" charge. As did my hammerers, they hit the chariot. The Longbeards stuck around to make sure the hammerers (who vaporised a chariot) got to flank the warriors, who broke and got overrun by my hammerers. My deathstar was reduced the the battle BSB and smith (beer drinking veterans) and my hammerers were with 18 guys! Then doom happened ... He finally killed my gryo, and positioned his knights and chariot as an Iron and my hammerers were the waffle. My thane moved from the smith to the hammerers (I know, the b*st*@# left the smith to be a speed bump) and the hammerers faced the knights. The smith rear guarded the hammerers. Ouch..... A charging chariot with D6 S5 impact hits is not funny .... twice! First he ran over my smith, then he hit my hammerers. 18 bodies was not enough to withstand all these S5 attacks, so when the time came to hit back, there were not alot of hammers in the air to hit back. Lost combat, fled (I know, stubborn rerollable), banners exploded, warriors ran me down. The hellcannon got the better hand over my gyro (demonic monster versus excellent dwarven machinery), and had a go at the drakes, killed 4. The drakes then shot the knight to pieces, but got beaten up by his last chariot and hellcannon.

 

Excellent battle, had a lot of fun, really liked the ETC table set-up, liked the list! I think this set up is viable, to some extend. +3 combat res on top of ranks, SB and BSB is a big shocker for most units. 

 

Lessons 1: alway vanguard the drakes in your opponent most dangerous unit and start blasting. You want this unit to be charged. Their stand-and-shoot will annihilate virtually any quick cav or chariot unit in the game. Thats their purpose imo. It also freaks your opponent out. 

Lesson 2: The longbeards need more bodies... took some out of the Drakes, recruited them as longbeards (though they did not see it as a promotion)

Lesson 3: Do not forget Grugni when your opponent's hellcannon rolls 10 wounds on your deathstart.

 

Good evening.

[TaxiForBiggins]

banner + BSB = +2 now?

[Pellegrim]

Not sure what you mean; I mean 3 x RoBattle, SB and BSB in one unit (+5 combat res.).