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The Death Of Gotrek (Spoilers)


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#1 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:26 PM

SPOILERS!



SPOILERS!





SPOILERS!




Spoiler



#2 FVC

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:44 PM

Worst.

 

Slayer.

 

Ever.

 

;)



#3 Theatralic

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:59 PM

Wow.....I shouldn`t  have read that Spoiler....I am usualy one of the more positive Guys...but to be honest...I hate it.

 

Not sure if I am even gonna get it know myself and read it. Ususally I am all for making up your own mind..,but this leaves a sour Taste.

 

Why couldn`t they just kill him an and be done with it? Let that Guys rest....I find this cheap, boring and inconsequential

 



#4 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 05:06 PM

Spoiler



#5 Guest_Mountain_*

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 05:18 PM

Spoiler

Edited by Mountain, 20 March 2015 - 05:20 PM.


#6 Grumpgrim

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 08:52 PM

Spoiler

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler


Edited by Grumpgrim, 20 March 2015 - 08:53 PM.


#7 -Thunder Shark-

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 01:13 PM

This justifies a Grimnir miniature but I'm not sure that would be a good a idea considering crunch. 



#8 mrpiggywinkles52

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 01:57 PM

I actually like this, let's be real, 9th will likely be in a similar world or alternate dimension of the WH world. Or possibly Sigmar recreates some of it. I'm just glad we saw Grimnir finally do something and that we might have Gotrek as the only recognisable Dwarf character in the new edition.



#9 Thorek Ironbrown

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 04:43 PM

I think it sounds bad@ss, but I haven't read any Gotrek or Felix novels either.



#10 Guest_Mountain_*

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 05:47 PM

"With enemies on all sides and destiny calling, Felix must make a choice: to follow Gotrek into the darkness that awaits him, or to abandon his oldest friend once and for all."

Well now we know what Felix do.

#11 Gurnik Skufson

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 09:36 PM

Grimnir could be back in 9th? This could mean we won't be merged with empire...

#12 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 09:57 PM

"With enemies on all sides and destiny calling, Felix must make a choice: to follow Gotrek into the darkness that awaits him, or to abandon his oldest friend once and for all."

Well now we know what Felix do.

Spoiler



#13 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 01:02 AM

Bets on gotrek wandering the realm of chaos until he randomly pops out into a new world and becomes the 9th edition dwarfs' god?

#14 Grumpgrim

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 08:32 AM

Bets on gotrek wandering the realm of chaos until he randomly pops out into a new world and becomes the 9th edition dwarfs' god?

 

Time to stockpile orange paint for converting the entire army to GWs new IP?



#15 FVC

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 10:01 AM

Bets on gotrek wandering the realm of chaos until he randomly pops out into a new world and becomes the 9th edition dwarfs' god?

 

Ugh, I hope not. One of the protagonists of a comedy series? Really? I don't think that would leave the dwarfs with much dignity.



#16 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 02:03 AM

 

Bets on gotrek wandering the realm of chaos until he randomly pops out into a new world and becomes the 9th edition dwarfs' god?

 

Ugh, I hope not. One of the protagonists of a comedy series? Really? I don't think that would leave the dwarfs with much dignity.

 

What is that now? Comedy series?



#17 Ehstevey

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 02:26 AM

 

 

Bets on gotrek wandering the realm of chaos until he randomly pops out into a new world and becomes the 9th edition dwarfs' god?

 

Ugh, I hope not. One of the protagonists of a comedy series? Really? I don't think that would leave the dwarfs with much dignity.

 

What is that now? Comedy series?

 

 

I agree, Gotrek & Felix is perhaps the truest representation of Warhammer Fantasy as it was. Before the grimdark times, before 6th edition...

 

It's not a comedy series, it's an epic adventure which happens to have a sense of humour.



#18 FVC

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 04:26 AM

Well, I admit, I'm still going from my only-read-the-first-omnibus-perspective, but I felt pretty strongly that Gotrek and Felix works best as a lighthearted fantasy spoof. It's Pratchettesque: a mis-matched odd couple fighting silly villains (e.g. Thanquol), getting into wacky hijinks, and surviving by the skin of their teeth. My reading was that when Gotrek and Felix try to be serious, they significantly drop in quality.

 

They are lighthearted and a bit silly. That's their appeal, surely? There are lots of silly/spoof characters like that: Golgfag Maneater, most of the old Dogs of War book, and large portions of both orc and goblin and skaven background spring to mind.

 

And that's good, because as Ehstevey mentions, WHF has room for a bit of silliness, a bit of comedy, and a bit of black humour. Those elements are important.

 

I'm just not a fan of elevating one of the silly characters to divinity, because for the silly characters to have their effect, the rest of the world needs to be not silly. If that makes sense? Gotrek and Felix are a bit of a joke, but the Empire and the dwarfs as a whole are not jokes. Golgfag is a joke, but the Ogre Kingdoms are not. Thanquol is a hilarious buffoon, and indeed the skaven are usually portrayed as rather incompetent, but that occurs over a background of the skaven as a potentially serious threat. Orc and goblin comedy comes from juxtaposing their slapstick wackiness with a more solid background of brutality and constant war. (Thus e.g. many orc and goblin characters are jokes, but, say, the Battle of Black Fire Pass is not a joke. The comedy elements of the faction are sidelined.)

 

I have the same reaction here. The dwarfs can be comedic, and characters like Gotrek or Malakai Makaisson play into that. At times even more serious characters have played into comedic elements, such as Thorgrim Grudgebearer demanding recompense for the most ridiculous and trivial grudges, which are obviously the dwarfs' own fault. But that occurs over a foundation of seriousness. The dwarfs as a whole are not jokes, and so the dwarf gods are not jokes. You do not laugh at Grungni, Grimnir, or Valaya.

 

But I do laugh at Gotrek's hijinks. That makes a difference, to me.



#19 Ehstevey

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 09:31 AM

Conversely...I think they can be.

 

Unfortunately WHFB and 40k have devolved into a race to see who can be the most grimdark.

 

Gotrek and Felix can still kick Test. Thanquol managed to conjure a spell so powerful that a slann and an archemage had to take a step back. The balancing point of warhammer is getting a character which is both comedic and dangerous. If they became the standard, we'd have WHFB back. In their current form, maybe not gods, however if you take this simply as their retelling (their saga) and suddenly, you realize that this is basically the making of a god.

 

Heck the side-stories with Throgg and the like are basically world-saving scenarios to say the least. They're short a couple of adventures though, and the End Times really just doesn't give anyone a fitting end (especially to the Gotrek & Felix saga, which could have gone at least another half-dozen before petering off).



#20 FVC

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:35 AM

I'm not sure it was ever about how capable they are in combat. As early as Skavenslayer, the two of them saved Nuln, which is just about as good: since if they failed it would have required substantial background rewrites, and the idea actually has more impact for me, because I know Nuln and can relate to it more easily.

 

Nor do I actually know what you're talking about with Throgg. I liked the Chaos-corrupted troll king in the Chaos AB; but I must admit that I am disappointed to hear he plays a major role in G&F. It makes me sadly less interested in him.

 

The thing is, I don't quite understand the continued appeal. There are, what, a dozen G&F novels so far? I thought they petered off by Daemonslayer, so I cannot really grasp your suggestion that they could have gone another half dozen. The idea of Gotrek and Felix engaging with, say, Teclis on even terms sounds like utter madness to me. (But I understand that Teclis was very out-of-character in G&F anyway.)

 

It's true that often memorable WHF characters do have potential comedic elements. Bits of comic relief every now and then are important, and characters need to be a mixture. So sometimes Thorgrim Grudgebearer is a bit goofy and ridiculous. It also works in reverse: the orcs and goblins might be a silly army, but there is some seriousness and even some poetic tragedy to Azhag the Slaughterer.

 

But I perceive Gotrek and Felix as being mostly comedic, and not really having any credible serious side. I stopped reading their novels for the same reason I stopped reading the Ciaphas Cain novels: I was thinking, "Okay, I have gotten the joke. I don't need to read it repeated for thousands of pages more."

 

It might be just a fundamental disagreement? I cannot take Gotrek Gurnisson as a serious character, in the same way as Thorgrim or Belegar or Ungrim. He is silly. He's more like a quirky roleplaying character. The idea of treating him as just as important as Grimnir is ludicrous to me. He's just... I mean, I don't read him as being as important as even second-tier special characters, like Belegar or Kurt Helborg or whoever. As far as the game goes, I would keep Gotrek and Felix as a Regiment of Renown: they should be in the same category as Golgfag Maneater or Asarnil the Dragonlord: that is, quirky adventurer-mercenaries who can be slotted into a wide variety of armies.






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