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A Voice For Combat Dwarves In Competitive Play


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#21 Mountain Mammoth

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 01:26 PM

Mr Powell from Canada, yes? I think we did. How did you do against him Rayn?

#22 Rayn Oathforge

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 11:10 PM

Great!  Got a 17/20.  Swedish is really tough against a lot of these armies.  No magma cannons, no Tauruks, no hell cannons, no level 4 on Death/Hashut, no BSB for any of the Chaos Dwarfs and only two level 1's on fire for his magic.  Kooky lists like no magic Skaven, shooting Orcs, no Hell Cannons anywhere etc.  That Chaos Dwarf list only comped in at a 12.1.  It wasn't until I saw the gaping holes in the opponents lists that I realized we do have it pretty good.  Of course with most of us on the top 10 tables last round I'm sure our Swedish success in the comp will be changing soon sadly; especially with Groth.



#23 Gotrong Gudmundsson

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 11:27 PM

Montegue: I wouldn't call it doubt, but I will say surprise? I had definitely counted out that Dwarflist from the beginning, and while there's such a thing as luck, it's rather unlikely that you'll get lucky 6 games in a row, though... and playing comp 17 Dwarves without warmachines when the max comp is 14 and still getting in the top 33% is immensely impressive. Definitely shows there's more behind it than just sheer luck of the draw, and that Mountain Mammoth knows well how to make the stock Dwarves work for their points!

 

Mountain Mammoth:

His general was on a Wyvern and it was the Hawkeye shot of the century.  I hit with the trollhammer (on 5+), randomized on the General (on a 5+), he failed his talisman of preservation save (on a 3-), and then I rolled 3 wounds (on a 5+).  That kind of dumb luck can only happen against someone who uses Basha's Axe of Stunty Smashin' (righteous grudge fulfilled if you ask me).

 

This brought a tear to my eye. Such beauty.

 

 

As for the rest of the reply... that really is fantastic, mate. Thank you so much for taking the time to write about your list! Of course, it'd be a travesty to not pose follow-up questions :)

 

The warriors:

 

But don't they get left behind? When will they be doing flee moves? I can't see them getting into combats until much later! I'd be more tempted to try and invest in more Longbeards, smacking the two units together and dropping some LBs from the 29 man unit to help fund it.

 

I mean... if wild riders are afraid of 10 warriors, the opponent is definitely overestimating them :P 5 Wild Riders will tear through that in no time! I'd worry about them as potential easy points pickups for anything that doesn't want to tackle the two big units of steel and stubborn.

 

Lord in Ironbreakers:

 

This surprises me! I had assumed you'd put him in Longbeards, to act as a meatshield? I'd be sort of worried about that unit in that case, since they're not THAT good at fighting... and IBs with stubborn can take care of themselves.

 

Chaff as trampolines:

 

The thing about diverters is that they're often angled in such a way that overruns take you further, but in the wrong direction, forcing you to overrun instead.

 

 

 

Finally, are there any changes you'd make to the army?



#24 Bryapatch

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 09:10 AM

This is great information. I just had a question about lord build. You said you would point that unit at the nastiest enemy unit especially against elves or brets, but won't the Lord just bounce against them? 4 Strength 4 attacks? That's not going to get through knight Armour? Cheers

#25 Rayn Oathforge

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 11:48 AM

Mr Powell from Canada, yes? I think we did. How did you do against him Rayn?


Seems like we both got lucky playing some of the nicest gentlemen there.

#26 Mountain Mammoth

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 02:27 AM

Str 4 AP (from the runesmith) is usually good enough to punch through most saves. As a Bret player too, I can tell you that str 4 AP is the scariest thing around barring banshee screams and even empire knights will fail a third of the time. Plus breakers don't win by killing everybody, but by killing more than they lose. If I lose combat I am stubborn on a rerollable 10 and am likely fine. Most enemies don't prepare for failure and protracted combats like that. It is the grind that kills them. One turn of fluffed attack rolls (even most elves need 4s to hit the breakers and 5s to hit The Lord) or spot on saves (5++ can really break an enemies spirit) and suddenly the enemies are likely to break. It doesn't matter if the enemy is close to full or almost dead when you run them down, you still score the same amount of points.

@ Rayn, I know. All six of my games were against good people. I truly feel that I was lucky to get opponents that made both the wins and the losses enjoyable (or as enjoyable as losses can be).

@Gotrong
The warriors march 6 a turn and are only two turns of movement behind the line. Often if someone charges a line unit, the warriors are 12" away, which is a makable counter charge. It is at least makable enough to sow doubt in the enemy's mind(Skilled players have to plan for the possibility).

To take the wild rider example (a local game not a masters one). Wild riders are on the flank. They have 3 options, 1 charge the warriors at long range and watch them flee and failed charge or redirect into a line unit (both options work for me); 2 move within the 15" charge arc of the warriors, I am likely to fail the charge, but if I don't the warriors have even odds of being able to counter ~140 pts with 110pts (again is my enemy willing to gamble or not); 3 withdraw/ remain stationary and hope I move into his range (this is the safe avoidance play). Because of my dart the riders choose to remain stationary rather than aggressively swinging around my flank. I was then able to swing a 13" charge around a building from my breakers that my opponent didn't see because he was so fixated on the warriors(luck will save a man if his courage holds) and swing a game against a terrible match up into my favor. This isn't something I rely/plan on, but I am on the look out for opportunities when the do arise. The main goal is to swing the balance of points in you favor (Comp can help with this but so can luck) so that the opponent feels that they need to engage you to get back in the game. When that happens, the game is yours to lose.

I put my king in the breakers because they are the most likely to survive the kind of fights he usually finds himself in. Plus his might rune is golden against monsters and nasty characters, which are both weaknesses of breakers. I suppose the shield beards have the same weaknesses, which means that they would benefit from the lord's presence too. If you did that, you could go with slayers or hammerers and have two stubborn/unbreakable vanguarders. There is a real difference better a 3+ 5++ and a 4+ 6++, especially against the glut of str5 + that one tends to see these days, so I just prefer the to keep my lord with the breakers.

Even if the position themselves so you have to swing to a weird angle, you are still usually netting quite a bit of forward movement on a simple reform, in addition to the chaff points. Plus I find that planning the overrun with chaff is usually a fairly advance tactic and not everyone has the experience or movement range to pull it off.

As far as changes, I am toying with the idea of using quarrellers instead of warriors for the darts. I am not certain if the extra points (cheapness/sacrificablility is one of the main goals for the unit) is worth the extra range. I am also thinking about trading the longbeards strollaz for stoicism. I don't like my breakers vanguarding alone, but I also find the shieldbeards are running from combat more than they should. Maybe slayers and bunker beards are the answer after all.

@Montegue, Thank you for the kind words.

Edited by Mountain Mammoth, 27 February 2015 - 02:34 AM.


#27 More Dakka

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 11:40 PM

Great concept, thank you for sharing this. I've also been reading your Batrep breakdowns as well. I think there is definitely something to be said for those cheap GW warrior darts. I'd also consider miners in a list like this, since they're basically the same point for point but wiht Ambush.

 

I've been pondering something similar, but with more of a focus on combat than points deinal (mainly just swapping the Breakers and shield beards for Hammerers and GW Longbeards).

 

What I was also thinking about was a heavier focus on Irondrakes as a confounding unit. I'm considering something along the lines of 25+ of them with 2x RoSlowness, then plunking the BSB in them with MRoGrugni, Strollaz and Stoicism. This way I can put them up into shooting range and be a compelte pest with them, especially against big elite units (knight busses, WoC, etc). If/when they do get charged they should be able to survive at least 1 round of combat, then the Hammerers and/or Long beards or GW Warrior darts can pull off a flank.

 

What is your opinon on this general tactic?



#28 kgkid

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 09:12 PM

Extremely interesting list, and an excellent result!

 

Congratulations! :D



#29 Mountain Mammoth

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:59 PM

@More Dakka I agree with you on the miners. I try to fit a unit of them in every new list I write (either a dart or a fully ranked unit). The problem is that dwarves are just so darn expensive. I would rather have a fourth gyrocopter or more drakes or more iron breakers, even an oath stone thane would be amazing. By the time push comes to shove, the miners always end up cut.

While I respectfully contest that infantry has to have gw to be "combat over points denial", I do understand what you mean about killing potential. The thing with both hammerers and great beards is that you need way more of them to make combat effective units (or units that can see more than one combat with out becoming non mission capable). My gut feeling (backed by what I have read around the brewery) is a 30 dwarf minimum for gw infantry. I have tried the 20 hammerers flanking unit and found that I could rarely swing the kind of match ups such a small unit favors (it all comes back to m3). So with gw lads it is go big or go home. Mind you will have enough points for 30-40 of each (and possibly your 25 drakes to boot) if you forego the lord, but where would the fun in that be?

On the drakes, it is a unit that is steadily growing on me. I started with a dart of 10 and a trollhammer and have shifted more points their way after every outing.

I will say that I mistrust putting stubborn on a character in the front rank (stoicism on the bsb puts even more of a target on his head). Maybe look into groth one eye on your hammerers, vanguarding the great beards and the drakes. If you really like the slowness combo on the drakes ( it is hard to say no to), then you can keep your bsb with them and have your hammerers as a second part of your attack in echelon (this would preserve their combat strength and safeguard the stubborn banner they carry, just make certain that your great beards and drakes don't vanguard out of the stubborn bubble). Otherwise you could put the bsb in the hammerers and vanguard all three. The nice thing about groth is it makes your darts and gyros stubborn if they are in range, which would also be very useful at times.

Edited by Mountain Mammoth, 05 March 2015 - 08:00 PM.





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