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A Different Competitive List Thats Not Gunline?

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#1 dwarfsarethebestaround

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 07:35 PM

Hi everyone.

I was wondering; is there a 2400 army list that isn't a gunline or strollaz list that's still competitive?

I know there's slayer lists and bugmans lists but I can't buy any models at the moment. I'm saying this because when you play the gunline a lot, it can get a bit boring. I know that this is the Dwarfs way of playing, but I just wondered whether there was an alternative, possibly a combat list with a lord, hammerers and Longbeards with 1 organ gun (with engineer) and 1 cannon as well as 2 Gyros.

Any ideas?

Thanks for any feedback!



#2 Swordthain

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 08:02 PM

I guess it depends on how you define "gunline". Any list that includes a few war machines is not necessarily a gunline. Gunlines basically involve the following strategic concepts for your army:

 

1. Shoot the enemy and hope there's nothing left.

2. Shoot the enemy and mop up what's left.

3. Shoot the enemy and hold the line.

4. Potentially others, depending on how you decide you want your force to defeat the enemy.

 

Now, in order to be a proper "gunline", a force will then include a heavy selection of ranged tactical capabilities. In other words, you'll have at least a few war machines and probably 3+ units of ranged infantry. If your force includes a single significant unit of dedicated combat troops, you might still be able to define it as a "gunline". Once you start adding other significant tactical capabilities, it ceases to be a gunline any longer and may be referred to (by colloquial convention within the Dwarf community, at least here at Bugman's) as a "conventional", "old-line conventional", "traditional", or "hybrid" force. Any of these other designations are often assumed to be "gunlines" on the basis that they involve ranged tactical capabilities as a significant or primary means of supporting the force's strategic concept, but the reality is that they are not actually "gunlines". For example, a Dwarf force that includes 2 Cannons and 2 Master Engineers accompanying 2 Organ Guns is technically not anything close to a gunline.

 

Of course, such rules are not hard-and-fast, and the actual definition of "gunline" is not my sole purview. Regardless, a good rule of thumb is, "A few war machines does not a gunline make."

 

So, without knowing what you've been using in your games (which you interpret to be a "gunline"), I don't know exactly what you mean to ask. I assume you're simply looking to minimize the reliance of your force on ranged tactical capabilities. If that's the case, you're probably best off determining how little shooting you can get away with while still giving your opponent enough incentive to move towards your lines in order to engage your units in close combat. I'm not sure there's any simple or easy answer for that.


Edited by Swordthain, 10 February 2015 - 08:05 PM.


#3 dwarfsarethebestaround

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 08:19 PM

Ok, some very interesting and helpful points there! My list is normally runesmithx2, bsb thane, engineersx2, 2x 10 quarrellers, 25 shieldbeards, 2x OG, Cannon, GT, 25 Hammerers and 2 Gyros. I see what you mean how it's not a gunline. I might drop the quarrellers, drop an OG and engineer, drop the GT and go Lord, 2xRunesmith, bsb, Gw warriors, Shieldbeards, Engineer + OG, cannon, Hammerers +2 Gyros. I will ponder on it for a while.



#4 Swordthain

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:04 PM

That list you presented might just pass for a gunline. It's shooty enough. The 2 units of Quarrellers move the force in that direction. Dropping any shooting at all will move you away from a gunline towards a more conventional force or hybrid force. If you drop a war machine, I would probably drop an Organ Gun, too, since you need the Cannon and Grudge Thrower to ensure your opponent has the motivation to beat feet across the board. On a strategic level, I would advise against the Lord, but then, he will be fun to field and provide you with some additional close combat support for when your opponent does contact your battle lines.  :rambo:



#5 kgkid

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 10:22 PM

The strongest builds may not be straight gun lines, but what is described as "hybrid" by some.

 

It is a concept of mix between Shooting and Close Combat, like Monty uses in some lists, or like Furgil used in previous edition.

 

Use Machines to shoot.
Use Gyros to support, and shoot some more.
Use a couple of strong, hard hitting blocks to defend the machines and kill whatever comes with an intention to fight.



#6 Montegue

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:27 PM

No matter what you build, if it has more than 2 units of artillery, your opponents will refer to it as a gunline. :) 



#7 cptfluffy

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:40 PM

I built a random list with the AoD and two BTs as my only ranged. And a random passer-by exclaimed "Bah, dwarfs and the same old gunline". Now, had he taken a better look or had any sense then might not have gotten the same reaction. But, the sure fact that I stood back for a bit they assumed it was gunline.

 

Not knowing what models you have available it would be hard to suggest much beyond what you currently play with. And I might also presume that the idea of "Castling" or holding the line might be part of your issue if you play it too much. I could suggest deploying differently or in a way where you have less advantage to see if you can recover from bad positioning? Some of the senarios make this come to light when you cannot deploy the army as one.



#8 Swordthain

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 04:17 AM

No matter what you build, if it has more than 2 units of artillery, your opponents will refer to it as a gunline. :)

True, but we only perpetuate the stereotype--and the Dwarf hate that goes with it--when we ourselves refer to our armies as "gunlines" when they are not.  :rant:



#9 kgkid

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 10:54 AM

There is a lot of truth in all of these. 

 

I played a game the other day, I took Strollaz list with only 2 machines, it was the beginning of turn 2 and my 3 blocks were on the edge of opponents DZ, left wing protected by table edge, with 2 combats already happening. Machines were even positioned near the center of the table.

 

A pass-by, a quick look and a comment: "Dwarfs in the corner again..."

I laughed and said "Yeah, but which corner?"

It took him a while to get it.



#10 Montegue

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 03:21 PM

Right? You can be in combat on turn 2 or 3 and people will still tell you you're playing a castle. I generally charge my opponents before they charge me, and I frequently initiate the big fights. 



#11 dwarfsarethebestaround

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 04:31 PM

I try to initiate the big fights but apparently nobody likes my 30 man hammerer unit with my lord, bsb and runesmith in it  :( I wonder why? :)


Edited by dwarfsarethebestaround, 11 February 2015 - 04:32 PM.


#12 Lieutenant_Az_Barag

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 12:26 AM

I try to initiate the big fights but apparently nobody likes my 30 man hammerer unit with my lord, bsb and runesmith in it  :( I wonder why? :)

 

No idea, after all who doesn't like being charged by a unit that swings with S7, -5AS attacks? I know that i am reknowned to frequently use my 40 hammerer unit to charge a big block of enemy troops with a horn of vengeance playing to give me 51 S7 -5AS on the charge. Turns out thats OP and frowned upon at my club when against 21 strong knights of the inner circle units whos user had not been beaten with his 1+ armour army

 

Ben



#13 Montegue

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 12:37 AM

Drink his sweet sweet tears like a fine Bugman's XXXXXX. 

 



#14 winsafra

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 02:59 PM

Cartmanish response Montegue lol, appropriate nonetheless!

#15 Thormak

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Posted 13 February 2015 - 05:08 AM

Competitive without artillery/shooting would be very difficult.

I would take lots of combat lords and rune smiths. Shut down enemy magic phases, prevent fighting infantry from taking characteristic tests and hexes. Combat lords to produce combat res fast and prevent enemy characters and especially monsters from thunder stomping all over your parade.

Lots of flying gyrocopters and gyrobombers (if considered non gunline) need chaff clearing as well as enemy blockers to allow your movement 3 combats to happen.

I'd be tempted to run as much rune of slowness as possible to prevent enemy charges, allow for you get as much +1 strength charges against the targets you want to engage.

Dunno these are all speculative ideas. I think it would be very unorthodox and very difficult to get to the same competitive level as artillery.

#16 dwarfsarethebestaround

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Posted 13 February 2015 - 04:55 PM

Competitive without artillery/shooting would be very difficult.

I would take lots of combat lords and rune smiths. Shut down enemy magic phases, prevent fighting infantry from taking characteristic tests and hexes. Combat lords to produce combat res fast and prevent enemy characters and especially monsters from thunder stomping all over your parade.

Lots of flying gyrocopters and gyrobombers (if considered non gunline) need chaff clearing as well as enemy blockers to allow your movement 3 combats to happen.

I'd be tempted to run as much rune of slowness as possible to prevent enemy charges, allow for you get as much +1 strength charges against the targets you want to engage.

Dunno these are all speculative ideas. I think it would be very unorthodox and very difficult to get to the same competitive level as artillery.

Ye instead of Grugni on my bsb I could take 3x RoSlowness and 2x or 1x on other units.

I think I would still take 1 OG and 1 Cannon. My ideal list would be at 2400 points.



#17 Montegue

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 04:37 PM

There's a hybrid approach I'm trying to suss out right now. It would combine moderate shooting protected by a decent small unit in the back field, and two strong combat units with Vanguard supported by gyros. Inspired by both Rayn's success and Bronzebeard's success, to be honest. I think both of them have their finger on the pulse of what's needed to really excel with the army - Defensive and aggressive play, used at the proper time. I think vanguard allows us to have both options. 



#18 Daroom

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 05:31 PM

I really have two issues with the negative 'gun-line of thinking'.

 

First of all, we play dwarfs.  Meaning from the get go, we have some of (if not) the worst movement in the game.  Which is in many peoples opinion the most IMPORTANT part of the game.  So we have to make them, to some extent come to us otherwise a faster harder hitting list will take a few points... and then can simply ignore us to win.

 

Secondly, I've found the second you bring something like a cannon to rely on.  "I need to kill X phoenix before he charges in with 2," you end up hanging back with your troops to let the cannon shoot.  Since they can't ever effect things in combat, what would the point of a cannon BE, if you fully vanguard/marched up and got charged turn 1.  You may as well have not taken it.  And once you get the mindset of "i'm going to hang back 1-2 turns, try to get off a shot or two" you end up adding MORE shooting because otherwise you have an entire combat list... that just sits there waiting.

 

I find that due to the GW list design they gave us, we are FORCED to hang back and 'gunline' to some extent.  We are slower than everyone, combat specialists/monsters in other lists are better than us, so we are forced to weaken them before they hit our lines.  The combination of those two make us want to spend time waiting since unlike magic guns cannot effect combats.  And this forces a 'gunline' mentality.

 

If runesmiths could cast cool magic 'bound spells' on units... if we could have characters that wernt limited to gimmicky str 4 magic hand-weapons but actually decent options...  If we had cool fast moving monstrous golem infantry or some sorta ram cav for long charges or monster hunting... We would be able to step out of our 'castles' and fight in the midfield.  But as long as GW limits us to movement 3 infantry with no fancy reforms/skirmishing/speed, no influence on the magic phase but to eat irresistible spells on our "I" values, and that shooting can have no effect in combats this is the world we live in.

 

This is of course only my opinion, but I look at every 'list' that does well with dwarfs in the tournys and events I see, and it is always, 2-3 stubborn GW blocks (or masses of stubborn smaller units with Groth), anywhere from 4-5 warmachines, and 1-3 gyros to slow them down even more.

 

 



#19 Montegue

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 05:50 PM

Nothing stopping a cannon from shooting at things while you vanguard into position - enemy monsters, artillery, chariots, and the like. Organ Guns still supply support for your advancing units with a 30 inch range and powerful anti-chaff capabilities. Grudge Throwers can take a turn or two to soften your enemy infantry targets or take out big monsters, as well. Once you're in combat, they're focused on that, and not the easy-to-pick up points on your war machines. 

 

Or, so goes the theory. We'll see if I can make it work. 



#20 dmorley21

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 10:49 PM

Nothing stopping a cannon from shooting at things while you vanguard into position - enemy monsters, artillery, chariots, and the like. Organ Guns still supply support for your advancing units with a 30 inch range and powerful anti-chaff capabilities. Grudge Throwers can take a turn or two to soften your enemy infantry targets or take out big monsters, as well. Once you're in combat, they're focused on that, and not the easy-to-pick up points on your war machines. 

 

Or, so goes the theory. We'll see if I can make it work. 

 

I'm thinking two vanguarding units on one flank and two Organ Guns on the other could really put my opponent in a pickle. 







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