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W.i.p. 2500 Pts Vs. He & Vc

dwarfs high elves vampire counts mash blood & glory

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#1 dmorley21

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 05:13 PM

I've had a thread in The Dwarf Tavern where I've been getting a lot of help for a couple of games this upcoming weekend. I will be playing against two friends in separate games (and/or a potential 3 way free-for-all that will last all day). We're all new to 8th Edition after getting back into the game. 

 

The HE player will be using BotWD (unsure which unit), a Griffon, maybe a Phoenix, and really just a wide variety of units. The VC player will be using a Black Coach, Banshee, no Zombies, and probably not too many units that are new from 6th Edition, which is the last book he had when he played. 

 

We also are used to running units of infantry from 18-21 models, so I don't see a need to change that too drastically. Here's my work in progress list:

 

Characters: 632 pts

 

1 Runesmith w/ Rune of Spellbreaking, Fiery Ring of Thori, Rune of Stone, Shield @ 128 

I'll run him with the Ironbreakers and hope to use the Ring to boost a round of combat.

 

1 Runesmith w/ Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of the Furnace, Rune of Stone, Shield @ 98 

Goes with Longbeards

 

Grimm Burloksson @ 165

I know he's pricey, but he can really boost my naked Organ Gun that will need to put the hurt on whatever unit has BotWD. His gun also in my mind can take out a unit of war machine hunters (Reavers, Wolves, Eagle, Fell Bats) by itself IMO. So I like him quite a bit. 

 

Josef Bugman @ 165

Goes with Ironbreakers. I just like his fluff, and wanted to make the Ironbreaker unit a bit better in combat. Currently my general. 

 

Master Engineer w/ Pistol @ 76 

Helps the other Organ Gun

 

Core: 602... I need to find 23 more points somewhere

 

19 Longbeards w/ Shields, Full Command, Rune of Stoicism @ 312 pts

 

20 Quarrellers w/ Shields, Full Command @ 290 pts

 

Special: 792

 

18 Ironbreakers w/ Full Command, Brace of Drakefire Pistols @ 282 pts

My main close combat unit.

 

15 Slayers @ 180

Never used them before, but Deathblow seems like a lot of fun. I'm usually better at tactics than my friends, so I feel like I can get them into combat. 

 

2 Gyrocopters @ 160

 

1 Grudge Thrower w/ Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Forging, Rune of Penetrating @ 170

Against the armies I'll be playing, I think this is more versatile than a Cannon. 

 

Rare:

 

Organ Gun @ 120

Naked so it can deal with BotWD

 

Organ Gun w/ Rune of Penetrating @ 160

I know I should use Accuracy or Forging or both, but I really like how versatile a S6 Organ Gun is. It gives me a second war machine that can effectively monster hunt. 

 

 

 

That's currently 2306 pts, so I have some room to work with. 

 

I know everyone will say that I need a BSB, but I've never really liked the idea of a hero who just lugs a flag around in terms of fluff and I think with my Longbeards being stubborn, Slayers unbreakable, and IB's being stubborn sometimes from Bugman that it's not completely necessary to field a BSB. 

 

I am thinking since I want the Ironbreakers to be my main unit of 5 more so I have a unit of 25. 

 

I'm not sure what to do about my core. That's been a struggle. 

 

My combat units lack strength, but against HE I feel like Great Weapons are a waste and I don't see it being a huge need against VC as long as I can deal with the Black Coach. 

 

I have also thought about not using Bugman and trying a Lord on Shieldbearers just because he could tank and deal with some serious stuff if need be. We plan on playing Blood and Glory where the most expensive unit (not char.) is also worth 2 fortitude points. So they'll probably be gunning for my Ironbreakers. 

 

As you can likely tell, I'm looking for a fun list than can also be competitive.

 

Thanks in advance for any help or insight! 

 


Edited by dmorley21, 02 February 2015 - 02:51 PM.


#2 Cuthbo

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 05:51 PM

I know you've already addressed that everyone will say you need a BSB so I won't say you need a BSB.

 

But you really need a BSB.

 

Other than that it looks awesome! I totally love Bugman (the old boozer reminds me of my Uncle Eric, bless him) but really without his Rangers he seems totally out of place (but that may be because I ALWAYS take him with his rangers!). Swap him for a Lord on Shieldbearers. The model is nice and he is really tough, as Dwarves should be. 

 

I feel like this list needs a short, bearded fellow waving a flag. There must be a model like that...

 

 



#3 dmorley21

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 06:27 PM

I know you've already addressed that everyone will say you need a BSB so I won't say you need a BSB.

 

But you really need a BSB.

 

Other than that it looks awesome! I totally love Bugman (the old boozer reminds me of my Uncle Eric, bless him) but really without his Rangers he seems totally out of place (but that may be because I ALWAYS take him with his rangers!). Swap him for a Lord on Shieldbearers. The model is nice and he is really tough, as Dwarves should be. 

 

I feel like this list needs a short, bearded fellow waving a flag. There must be a model like that...

 

This entire reply made me laugh. 

 

My understanding on Bugman is that he will sometimes appear and given an army warning of a foe. That was my line of thinking for fluff. 

 

If I take a BSB, I just don't know how to set him up so that he is useful and can survive. Let's say I drop Bugman and want a Lord on Shieldbearers and a BSB. And I need to meet my core requirement. How would you do that? 



#4 Cuthbo

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 01:21 PM

Ah actually you're right - the Lord won't fit in this list! To be honest, Lords are only really good for not dying. If you drop old Bugman, you could take a BSB with Grugni (really useful for keeping those Slayers alive against High Elves!) and then pour the rest of the points into the Longbeards?

 

But I know how you feel about Bugman. His ability to give stubborn (most of the time) is ace too!



#5 dmorley21

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 01:33 PM

Yeah, I really think stubborn is fitting for Dwarfs. I wish there was a way for me to fit in Groth-One Eye. 

 

And I'm considering a Lord for the purpose of not dying. We just decided after I posted this that we're going to play Blood & Glory with the add on of 2 fortitude points for the biggest/most expensive unit and a fortitude point for each character. So if I put two characters in my Ironbreakers and make one the general, that unit will contain 6 fortitude points. In other words, that unit will be gunned for. 



#6 Cuthbo

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 01:13 PM

Just remember that Jo Bugman is extremely terrible at not dying!

 

Look forward to seeing some reports with your final list!



#7 dmorley21

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 03:28 PM

Yeah that's one problem I'm having with playing Blood & Glory. All Dwarf generals seem to due too easily except a Lord on Shieldbearers.

#8 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 12:21 AM

2 things stand out to me (besides the BSB issue).

1) You have two anvils (shieldbeards and ironbreakers - you could argue that the quarrelers with shields are big enough to count as a third) but no hammer. Id like to see a good sized gw unit in there. Anvils should also be stubborn but only your shieldbeards are.

2) Your combat blocks are too small imo. Mmu may be your play style, but if so then you would be wise to take the banner of groth one eye. The slayers especially are a problem. Either go very small (5 with a giant slayer) and use them as a roadblock which the enemy won't bother shooting. Or go big (min 30+) and also give them strollaz. A unit of 15 will attract attention, but isn't large enough to shrug it off until they reach combat.

#9 dmorley21

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 12:45 AM

2 things stand out to me (besides the BSB issue).

1) You have two anvils (shieldbeards and ironbreakers - you could argue that the quarrelers with shields are big enough to count as a third) but no hammer. Id like to see a good sized gw unit in there. Anvils should also be stubborn but only your shieldbeards are.

2) Your combat blocks are too small imo. Mmu may be your play style, but if so then you would be wise to take the banner of groth one eye. The slayers especially are a problem. Either go very small (5 with a giant slayer) and use them as a roadblock which the enemy won't bother shooting. Or go big (min 30+) and also give them strollaz. A unit of 15 will attract attention, but isn't large enough to shrug it off until they reach combat.

 

1) Against HE it seems like a "hammer" unit is just dead infantry. Any GW Dwarf only has a 5+ save which disappears from any elite infantry or cavalry charge. I know he'll have two blocks of elite infantry, a unit of Silver Helms, and a unit of Dragon Princes (that one is usually just a unit of 5). I just don't see a way to make a hammer work, especially when each standard is worth a fortitude point meaning I don't want a unit with a standard wiped out. I'm definitely open to advice though. I also thought about giving the Quarrellers GW's. 

 

2) It seems to me as if Groth One Eye - which I love and very much would like to take - is only a good option on a unit of Hammerers. I've got 20 Ironbreakers and want to give them a try. 

 

I've never used Slayers before and don't really know how to use them. I was thinking if I don't take a standard in that unit, my opponents may just leave them alone as they try getting fortitude points.

 

I am planning on giving the Ironbreakers access to Stubborn somehow - either Bugman (a percentage), Stoicism+Warding, or Groth One Eye. I'm also wiling to up any block to 25 and would happily take a 28 strong hammer unit. I'm just having a lot of trouble figuring out what makes sense. 

 

And I'm just really not used to things like steadfast and large blocks of infantry - in 6th and 7th 20-25 always seemed a good enough number. 



#10 Hero of Rome

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 08:07 PM

Yes I would not recommend running GW units against HE as they die so fast IB are ace though



#11 Krudd Kraggsson

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 12:57 AM

Tell that to his dragon prince/ silver helm cavalry bus

#12 dmorley21

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 02:28 AM

Yes I would not recommend running GW units against HE as they die so fast IB are ace though

 

 

Tell that to his dragon prince/ silver helm cavalry bus

 

Well, he usually has one unit of 8 Silver Helms and one unit of 5 Dragon Princes and I've never had any trouble with them. His last list was something like this:

 

20 Spearmen who ambused with a hero

8 Silver Helms

Probably some Archers... but can't remember them

5 Dragon Princes

20 Swordmasters

20 White Lions

Frost Phoenix

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

Shadow Warriors

A couple of Mages

 

He didn't even take BotWD before - didn't realize it worked against Dwarf Runes. After taking a look at the new book and pointing out how that was the scariest thing in it, he plans on taking it. 



#13 dmorley21

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 02:41 AM

All right all, here's my latest work in progress list. Keep in mind we'll be playing a modified version of Blood & Glory where the most expensive unit (excluding characters) is worth an additional two fortitude points. 

 

Characters (458)

 

Runesmith w/ Fiery Ring of Thori, Rune of Spellbreaking, Shield, Rune of Stone @ 128 (goes with IB)

 

Runesmith w/ Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of the Furnace, Shield, Rune of Stone @ 98 (goes with Quarrellers)

 

Master Engineer w/ Pistol @ 76 (helps an Organ Gun)

 

Thane w/ BSB, Master Rune of Grugni, Great Weapon @ 156 (goes with IB)

 

Core (634)

 

20 Quarrellers w/ Great Weapons, Full Command @ 310 (gets Runesmith)

 

21 Quarrellers w/ Great Weapons, Full Command @ 324

 

Special (741)

 

23 Ironbreakers w/ Full Command, Brace of Drakefire Pistols, Rune of Stoicism @ 411

 

 2 Gyrocopters @ 160

 

 1 Grudge Thrower w/ Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Forging, Rune of Penetrating @ 170

 

Rare (290)

 

Organ Gun @ 120

 

Organ Gun w/ Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Forging @ 170

 

Total = 2123 .... so 377 pts to work with still

 

 

 

Basically, this list forces my opponents to come at my Ironbreakers if they want to win. The unit will contain my BSB, General, another standard, and be my biggest unit. That's 6 fortitude points. And we're debating making BSB's two fortitude points. 

 

I feel like since they'll have to throw everything at my Ironbreakers, a Tank Lord and/or Oathstone might be options. 

 

Everything else is designed to wear his stuff out by the time it gets to my Ironbreakers. I'm not sure really how to use the Quarrellers in terms of deployment with their annoying move-or-fire, but I'll figure it out. The Great Weapons mean they can hit hard. I wish Groth was an option to make them stubborn, but I just think that would make my BSB too squishy. 

 

I'm also debating a second ME and/or upgrading my ME to Grimm. I just love that extra point of BS and his own gun that can handle some chaff units. 

 

I feel like this list is missing something iconic by not having Longbeards or Slayers as well. And I really wish my lovely Miner models were more useful than "counts as" in this edition. 

 

So how should I round out my list? We're playing Saturday. 



#14 Hero of Rome

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 05:34 PM

 

Yes I would not recommend running GW units against HE as they die so fast IB are ace though

 

 

Tell that to his dragon prince/ silver helm cavalry bus

 

Well, he usually has one unit of 8 Silver Helms and one unit of 5 Dragon Princes and I've never had any trouble with them. His last list was something like this:

 

20 Spearmen who ambused with a hero

8 Silver Helms

Probably some Archers... but can't remember them

5 Dragon Princes

20 Swordmasters

20 White Lions

Frost Phoenix

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

Shadow Warriors

A couple of Mages

 

He didn't even take BotWD before - didn't realize it worked against Dwarf Runes. After taking a look at the new book and pointing out how that was the scariest thing in it, he plans on taking it. 

 

No phoenix guard? Huh



#15 dmorley21

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 12:04 AM

Yeah, he's never played competitively and has never even given Phoenix Guard a try from what I can remember. I think he just always liked the models and fluff for Swordmasters and White Lions better. 

 

 

 

 



#16 Hero of Rome

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 10:20 AM

Ok now it makes sense.



#17 dmorley21

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 02:30 PM

I didn't take notes to write a legitimate battle report - the work done in that section of these forums is beyond impressive. But I just wanted to share how I did with those of you who were helping me in my two battles this weekend. 

 

The first battle was against HE @ 2500 pts. We were trying out a modified version of Blood & Glory where you had to capture the most fortitude points by the end of six turns. Also, if any army fell to 3 or less fortitude points they automatically lost. We assigned fortitude points for the following:

 

General = 2

BSB = 2

Characters on monsters = 2

Other Characters = 1

Standard Bearers = 1

Most Expensive Infantry or Calvary unit = 2 for wiping it out

War Machines = 1

Monsters = 1

 

My list was:

 

Runesmith (general) w/ Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of the Furnace, Rune of Stone, Shield (w/ Longbeards)

Runesmith w/ Rune of Spellbreaking, Fiery Ring of Thori, Rune of Stone, Shield (w/ Ironbreakers)

Grimm Burloksson (next to naked Organ Gun)

Thane w/ BSB, Rune of Stone... can't remember if I gave him a pistol and shield or great weapon (w/ IB)

 

24 Longbeards w/ Shields, Full Command, Rune of Stoicism

21 Quarrellers w/ Full Command, Great Weapons

 

23 Ironbreakers w/ Full Command, Brace of Drakefire Pistols, Rune of Stoicism, Rune of Warding

01 Gyrocopter w/ Vanguard

01 Gyrocopter

01 Grudge Thrower w/ Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetrating, Rune of Forging

18 Slayers

 

01 Organ Gun

01 Organ Gun w/ Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Forging

 

His list to the best of my memory was:

 

Archmage (general) w/ Level 4, Book of Hoeth, Ring of Khaine

Mage w/ Level 2

Noble w/ Griffon, Swiftsense, Shredding Talons, BSB, Great Weapon, Longbow, Dragon Armor, Cloak of Beards, Crown

 

05 Ellyrian Reavers w/ Bows, Champion, Standard Bearer

10 Silver Helms w/ Shields, Full Command

25 Spearmen w/ Full Command

 

20 White Lions w/ Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon

20 Phoenix Guard w/ Full Command

05 Dragon Princes w/ Champion, Standard Bearer

 

01 Frostheart Phoenix

01 Reapeater Bolt Thrower 

 

Highlights

 

The Archmage cast with IF on its first spell - Walk Between Worlds. It then blew itself into the Chaos Realm on the ensuing miscast role. 2 easy FPs for me, and a lot less magic! This also wounded his other mage from the blast, which then got finished off by a steam gun. 

 

This was easily the most competitive list he's taken against me, but the standard on the Reavers instead of a musician was a major goof by him. The Quarrellers made that an easy FP. 

 

Grimm was awesome. He finished off 2 Dragon Princes with his gun, shot down 2 Silver Hems, then charged 3 Silver Helms that had charged a Organ Gun and took them down in two combats. I also never failed his roll (still annoyed that he had to roll). 

 

At the end of the game, 1 Slayer was left fighting the Phoenix who had been taken down to 1 wound by my Slayers. (I flanked the Phoenix with them after it flanked my Quarrellers). That was sort of epic. The Slayers were a lot of fun. 

 

The copters were awesome. They slowed down his Phoenix and Phoenix Guard by taking charges and fleeing. They steamed and dive bombed some infantry and killed the Mage and Bolt Thrower. 

 

The Ironbreakers didn't get into combat until late, but held their own against the White Lions. 

 

The Shieldbeards took a charge from the Griffon Noble, held it for a turn, then got demolished by a second charge by Spearmen. I thought they'd last a bit longer against those two units. 

 

The Grudge Thrower never hit its target - the Griffon, and I think only killed three or four infantry the whole game. 

 

 

 

 







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