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Ambush/scouts/vanguard Spam - Overboard Or Awesome?

miners rangers strollaz

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#21 Swordthain

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 06:08 PM

Quarrellers pose a number of issues for inclusion in either Strollaz or ambush armies. Quarrellers with Great Weapon are especially problematic. The first issue is the challenge they'll always pose: shoot, move, or charge? This is often a tough choice. If you move them, you waste a round of shooting. If you shoot with them, you potentially miss out on important movement. It's best to keep yourself from having to make tough decisions, since such decisions leave the most room for error, and error will be exploited by your opponent. The specific issue with Quarrellers with Great Weapons as part of a Strollaz or ambush force is their overall lack of tactical capabilities required to support the strategic concept of such armies. First, they need to be able to be Stubborn. We do have the option of putting a RoStoicism on the BSB, but that BSB is going to be relatively fragile, so once he is killed (which will happen quickly if your opponent knows you've got a RoStoicism on him), the unit is no longer Stubborn. Second, WS4 hurts them more than you might imagine. You're expecting to be up against elite units, pushing that unit into your opponent's strongest unit so that your other units can take out the crunchy bits of his army. Third, you're spending points to give the unit conflicting capabilities. Sure, an argument might be made that you're doing that with Rangers, too. The argument doesn't hold up, though, I think, because the Rangers should already be in your list anyway, you're not paying for their ranged capability but rather their scouting capability, and they provide that ranged capability anyway so GW Quarrellers become superfluous.

 

Irondrakes will work better with a Strollaz army than an ambush army, because they compete for Rare points from which you're getting your big block of Rangers. If you're only taking minimum-sized Ranger units, you can take the Irondrakes in larger numbers. At 2500 points or smaller, you're probably only going to be able to fit a single effective unit into your Rare allowance in the end, so you want to make the unit as large as possible, I would think. I would further think that the Irondrakes might still work alright in a Dwarf ambush army, though it would mean significantly altering the look of the army from that of the particular force I use. The Shieldbeards would probably have to become Great Beards, you might lose a few Miners in order to apply changes in cost (but maybe not), etc.


Edited by Swordthain, 10 October 2014 - 08:16 PM.


#22 kelvenmore

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 01:25 AM

One thing I havent seen suggested yet is to use great quarrellers for one of the big strollaz blocks. The simple idea being that they can offer good fire support before closing and chewing stuff up with the GWs. Is there a reason this hasnt been discussed?

Because they're move or fire. Also with strollaz they move up 12" so 1 round of shooting isn't much support md since they cost 14 each their too expensive for one round of shooting.

One thing I have done is put a BSB in a unit of Thunderers and use the strollaz rune to adjust their position.

#23 Swordthain

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 04:49 AM

Had another tournament prep game--using a scenrio from the Bluegrass Brawl rules pack--with my ambush army tonight against a Skaven army. I'll have the battle report up in the next day or so. :-)

#24 Rippys

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 06:12 AM

I tried the following army on Friday in a 1500 point league game against an undefeated wood Elf army that sits at the back of the board in a wood with one combat block and the rest of his army skirmishing archers.

Block of ironbreakers with 3 runes of sanctuary (my opponent went fire and dark as I knew he would as he loves magic missles and direct damage spells) I wouldn't take that banner normally! Runesmith and thane bsb with strollaz and grungi attached.

Block of longbeards with Shields and strollaz.

5 scouts to protect my vanguard.

4 gyros.

I ended up losing the game but really it was probably more down to rookie mistakes than the list underperforming. The gyros are fantastic but being such a threat he used everything he had against them first.

Hiding his combat block in a venom thicket really hurt too!

Next time I'm going to drop the ironbreakers for scouts and maybe some miners. Irondrakes are a possibility too as he will struggle to kill them whilst they slowly shoot off his archers.

#25 Swordthain

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:38 AM

I just posted another battle report using my ambush list. I haven't posted my opponent's list, just because he hasn't sent it to me yet, but I will update the report with it as soon as he gets it to me. Hope it helps!



#26 The Peacemaker

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:49 AM

A unit of 20+ thunderers with the bsb in there with strollaz is a decent option. You vanguard up into range, you got shields so your not going to be charging. And if your wide enough you can easily put the bsb on edge, maybe a piece of impassible terrain or unit in front so he can't be touched in the first charge.

 

Either give the bsb the stubbron banner or give the hammerers a stubborn banner.



#27 Swordthain

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:13 AM

I do not understand. This doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever why anyone would ever actually consider doing this in a Strollaz army... Could you explain your logic for me?

#28 Aarresaari

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:36 AM

I've been biting my nails with those damn ETC-comps. That 450 points restriction actually seems like it's forcing dwarfs into building those gunlines. Whatever you plan, your units will always be a bit too squishy and you'll always wind up with some odd 150 points in core to be dealt with. I don't trust strollaz enough to have 2 blocks depending on it, but is there any other way with the core tax? What's your experience in fitting an Ambush army inside those comps? 



#29 Swordthain

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:13 PM

I have no experience with ETC. In fact, the only comp that's ever used in this neck of the woods is the exclusion of special characters, but even that's so rare that I have not attended a single event that had even that restriction--at least, not in 8th edition.

That said, I don't think ambush and Strollaz' armies would be viable under ETC restrictions.

Edited by Swordthain, 13 October 2014 - 12:14 PM.


#30 Aarresaari

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:22 PM

That is sad to hear. Especially if the rest of the world is that free. I personally dislike ban-everything comps and I think they make this game way too serious. The swedish is a good one, but no-one uses it here in Finland. 

 

But anyway, tomorrow I'll be testing an ETC-restricted ambush list with a shieldbeard block and two hordes of miners. With a killy Lord in there I think I can manage to bring down something if I'm lucky. I'm not sure though whether I should take two runesmiths or a third gyro + some odd bodies. They both seem quite important.



#31 Swordthain

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:31 PM

What good Finn would use anything cooked up by a Swede? Ha! Just kidding.

 

Would you be willing to post your list for us? I'd love to see at least an attempt to get a Dwarf ambush army to work under ETC restrictions. I would probably take a third Gyrocopter over a second Runesmith, I think, if you're going to have a killy Lord. The reason I take two Runesmiths in my ambush armies is mostly for the utility of that second Runesmith: it allows me to take a second Spellbreaker, the Silver Horn of Vengeance, and I can always move him into my unit of Rangers to give them Armour Piercing. I always think I can also use the Runesmiths as redirectors in a pinch, but I'm finding that I just don't: they either haven't used their Spellbreakers yet, or the opportunity to use them as redirectors just doesn't present itself. A third Gyrocopter will really help your force out a lot overall, and it gives you the ability to Vanguard 2 of the three, which can be extremely helpful. Whichever you choose, though, you really can't go wrong with either choice.



#32 Aarresaari

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:31 AM

What good Finn would use anything cooked up by a Swede? Ha! Just kidding.

You are breaking my heart there. ;)

 

 

 

Would you be willing to post your list for us? I'd love to see at least an attempt to get a Dwarf ambush army to work under ETC restrictions. I would probably take a third Gyrocopter over a second Runesmith, I think, if you're going to have a killy Lord. The reason I take two Runesmiths in my ambush armies is mostly for the utility of that second Runesmith: it allows me to take a second Spellbreaker, the Silver Horn of Vengeance, and I can always move him into my unit of Rangers to give them Armour Piercing. I always think I can also use the Runesmiths as redirectors in a pinch, but I'm finding that I just don't: they either haven't used their Spellbreakers yet, or the opportunity to use them as redirectors just doesn't present itself. A third Gyrocopter will really help your force out a lot overall, and it gives you the ability to Vanguard 2 of the three, which can be extremely helpful. Whichever you choose, though, you really can't go wrong with either choice.

Gladly! Today's list is just a draft, but I kinda have to settle on the basics so that I can paint everything until next week's tournament.

 

Dwarf Lord w/ shield, shieldbearers, 2x might, 3x warding

BSB w/ great weapon, grungi, strollaz

Runesmith w/ shield, stone, 2x spellbreaker

Runesmith w/ shield, stone, spellbreaker, fiery ring

 

29 Shieldbeards w/ full command, stoicism

12 quarrellers w/ shields, musician (core-tax. I wonder if I should drop one to have a standard in case of blood & glory)

 

35 Miners w/ full command, steam drill

35 Miners w/ full command, steam drill

2x gyrocopters, 1 vanguard

 

5 rangers

 

I guess I just have to lure as many drops as possible with gyros and quarrellers and then decide which egde of the table I'll push my breakthrough. Shieldbeards go 5-wide, with all characters guarding the front or just lord, depending on the enemy. One smith my jump into miners if given a chance. I'd really need that extra 100 points.



#33 Bimli

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 01:37 PM

I think strollaz is to "it might or might not work"... It depends on your opponent if he/she has scouts and they get to deploy first before yours he/she can block to many of your strollaz units which means you spend strollaz points for nothing and now your just a moving up list. That, for me makes strollaz to situational.

 

Miners and scouts are great,  having a bunch of ambushers with some scouts id think would be a nice touch as that will be a great in your face list that would really only struggle against avoidence lists.



#34 Swordthain

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 02:25 PM

 

What good Finn would use anything cooked up by a Swede? Ha! Just kidding.

You are breaking my heart there. ;)

 

 

 

Would you be willing to post your list for us? I'd love to see at least an attempt to get a Dwarf ambush army to work under ETC restrictions. I would probably take a third Gyrocopter over a second Runesmith, I think, if you're going to have a killy Lord. The reason I take two Runesmiths in my ambush armies is mostly for the utility of that second Runesmith: it allows me to take a second Spellbreaker, the Silver Horn of Vengeance, and I can always move him into my unit of Rangers to give them Armour Piercing. I always think I can also use the Runesmiths as redirectors in a pinch, but I'm finding that I just don't: they either haven't used their Spellbreakers yet, or the opportunity to use them as redirectors just doesn't present itself. A third Gyrocopter will really help your force out a lot overall, and it gives you the ability to Vanguard 2 of the three, which can be extremely helpful. Whichever you choose, though, you really can't go wrong with either choice.

Gladly! Today's list is just a draft, but I kinda have to settle on the basics so that I can paint everything until next week's tournament.

 

Dwarf Lord w/ shield, shieldbearers, 2x might, 3x warding

BSB w/ great weapon, grungi, strollaz

Runesmith w/ shield, stone, 2x spellbreaker

Runesmith w/ shield, stone, spellbreaker, fiery ring

 

29 Shieldbeards w/ full command, stoicism

12 quarrellers w/ shields, musician (core-tax. I wonder if I should drop one to have a standard in case of blood & glory)

 

35 Miners w/ full command, steam drill

35 Miners w/ full command, steam drill

2x gyrocopters, 1 vanguard

 

5 rangers

 

I guess I just have to lure as many drops as possible with gyros and quarrellers and then decide which egde of the table I'll push my breakthrough. Shieldbeards go 5-wide, with all characters guarding the front or just lord, depending on the enemy. One smith my jump into miners if given a chance. I'd really need that extra 100 points.

 

That list actually looks really good, considering comp! It pains me that you have to cap the Shieldbeards' unit at 29. Taking the Quarrellers' points and adding them to the Shieldbeards would be SO helpful. Overall, though, it ought to do alright. A lot of your opponents won't be expecting it, and if you use that to your advantage, you'll have the element of surprise so you can exploit their ensuing poor decisions.  :devil: I like the Lord. I think that'll help the Shieldbeards out, too, to have that Lord in there with them. I'd probably go with just one unit of Miners in order to make the Rangers big and scary, butt



#35 Aarresaari

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 07:49 PM

That actually looks really good, considering the comp. I'd probably drop a unit of Miners to make the Rangers big and scary, but I don't know how much of an improvement that would actually be, if any. I like the Lord, too. He ought to really help the Longbeards out. It pains me that you have to include the Quarrellers, because you could really use their points to beef up the Longbeards! But, it's an accession to comp, I suppose... Not really anything you can do about that. I think you'll do well with this army. You'll catch a lot of people by surprise!  :devil: Exploit their surprise. Good luck, and let us know how you fare!

 

 

 

Thanks for the advice. It was a draw/minor loss. His army was basically chaff, two lvl4 greater daemons, skullcannon and some big nasty monster. The problem was that those pesky quarrellers and rangers (and in the end gyros due to that moving cannon) just bled enough points for him while I was unable to catch anything. It just felt like a waste of an evening for both of us. But I'm not giving up.

 

I too was thinking about replacing a unit of miners with rangers. But without Bugman they seem kinda wimpy. And there'd be only 30 with full command. Scouting could be handy though. Are their shots worth it? They could be. At leas I'd have some way to wither down those avoidance lists.



#36 Rayn Oathforge

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:35 PM

I'll be bringing a Swordthain style Ambush list to the Crossroads Spring GT! Been a huge fan of this list and ST's reports since the new book came out and previous versions in the old book. Plus I'll try to squeeze in my old Dwarf Lord for fun. Now to just get motivation to paint 30 miners...

#37 Zidane_blade

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 09:08 AM

Even in my vanguard/scout list, I still bring a cannon to get one or two pot shots, at those big nasties.
They can be really menacing, especially against this type of list.

#38 Aarresaari

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 10:50 AM

Even in my vanguard/scout list, I still bring a cannon to get one or two pot shots, at those big nasties.
They can be really menacing, especially against this type of list.

That's actually a very handy idea. Especially for my struggles with ETC-comps. As I already am forced to take those small quarrellers they might as well try to get themselves useful protecting that cannon. But I'd have to sacrifice a copter for that, which would make those blocks even more allergic to chaff. Although, if I change a unit of miners into bigger rangers they'd be able to clear some chaff with shooting by themselves. It's complicated, and I've got too little time to test it all.



#39 kgkid

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 11:23 AM

Or, you could hold a Gyro a little bit back to guard the Canon if needed?

 



#40 Bimli

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 12:23 PM

in any tournys your going to see some avoidence armies or some big nasties it best to make your army an all comers list imo so taking a cannon would be a great idea. What about an OG to protect your flanks?







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