Jump to content


Photo

Ambush/scouts/vanguard Spam - Overboard Or Awesome?

miners rangers strollaz

  • Please log in to reply
50 replies to this topic

#1 Grimgi Ironside

Grimgi Ironside

    Dwarf Warrior

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 130 posts

Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:00 PM

So I've read the great sources of Dawi tactical wisdom that the forum provides, especially Stymie's Tactica for the Monty Mash, and Swordthain's article on How to build a WHFB Army.  I have to say both of these provide thorough overviews (while managing to start and cover different aspects of the game) and I think I've learned a lot by reading them.

With that disclaimer out of the way, I have a question to pose.  I tried to dig through recent posts, going back a few pages, but I didn't find a thread dedicated to this question.  I've seen theoryhammer about it, and some army lists favoring it, but no thread dedicated to discussing and fine turning exactly what this type of army would look like and how it should play and win.

I'm talking about that elusive Dwarf Strollaz/Ambush/Scouts heavy army.  I'm thinking about putting Strollaz on anything that can't Ambush/Scout, taking a minimum of Warmachines/Gyros, and lots units that mess with the deployment phase to really drive an opponent up a wall.  What would this army look like?  How would it play?  What strengths/weaknesses does it bring to a game?  Is it too elf-ish? :P

 So whats the wisdom of the Longbeards on this?  I'm trying to bang out such a list as I type this, and hope to post it in the Barracks soon so that what I'm thinking of here is a little more clear, but for now, I'd just like to read what the more experienced Dwarf generals have to say.

Thanks! :smiling:


Edited by Grimgi Ironside, 09 October 2014 - 06:12 PM.


#2 Ozariig

Ozariig

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:09 PM

I haven't tried it myself, so I can't really offer advice on running a list.  But I can point you at some good reading material.

One of my favourite examples of Strollaz in action can be found in SubTwo's list (he has some battle reports from a tourney he went to, also).

In a nutshell, it's:

  • A block of Longbeards get Strollaz and fills out your core points
  • A block of Hammerers gets Strollaz and another rune to satisfy Rule of Pride, e.g. Slowness
  • Grungni and Strollaz on the BSB, to give Strollaz to one more unit of your choice
  • As many Gyrocopters with Vanguard as you can take
  • Plus a couple of 5-Ranger units to help guard your Vanguard moves

Edited by Ozariig, 09 October 2014 - 06:14 PM.


#3 Stymie Jackson

Stymie Jackson

    Dwarf King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,555 posts

Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:09 PM

It does need to be covered. Big problem I see is the expense of vanguarding, and the hard limit of four blocks that can vanguard due to lack of cheap banner runes. Seriously, they couldn't make another 10-15 point banner rune?

 

If you want four blocks, the max, you need Hammerers and the BSB to provide two of those and then you're spending 200+ points on just vanguard runes.

 

Swordthains Ambush army is probably the best way to do it so far...use Rangers and Miners for most of the offensive so you only need to rune up one or two normal units with Strollaz.

 

Abandon all war machines, and do not neglect Gyros. You're gonna want at least 2, probably 3-4 gyros with the ambush list or avoidance armies will crush (ok, will minor win) you every single time. You cannot have an effective ambush list AND have war machines under 3k IMO...it's going to be just free points unless you leave a unit or two for protection, and then that detracts from your offensive units and basically you won't do anything well.

 

I was thinking:

 

Longbeards Strollaz (big, like 40)

Hammerers Strollaz (small, like 21)

Slayer Strollaz (small, like 21)

Irondrake Strollaz (medium, like 20)

 

Add miners, gyros and rangers. Tough to fit into 2500 and worries me. So yeah, go with Swordthains miner and ranger heavy list instead. Alternately, Stollaz two slayer blocks, put a BSB with strollaz in a longbeard horde (with Grungni) and spend the rest of miners, rangers and gyros.


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 09 October 2014 - 06:11 PM.


#4 Ozariig

Ozariig

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:19 PM

Yeah, Ambush is a bit of a different approach from Strollaz, but lets you effectively take the battle to the enemy's side of the table as well.  Here's a link to Swordthain's most recent report for ya!

 

The main thing in Ambush is to go big.  When all of your points are in large GW-wielding units, your enemy will have to think on their toes if they want to win the battle!  On the other side, if you don't go big enough or if you throw away one of your units in a fight they can't win, you're really going to feel it in the end results.



#5 Grimgi Ironside

Grimgi Ironside

    Dwarf Warrior

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 130 posts

Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:31 PM

For playing as he said 'fast and loose' that was a pretty fun Bat Rep.  And those are huge units.  Very fun to see Bugman w/ his Rangers, and no Warmachines!  Brave man!

So it seems like Swordthain used each of the three elements listed above in one big unit that took advantage of the coresponding special rule, and it worked.  Would multiple medium sized units [maybe 15-25-ish models] also be effective, or is a lack of high M really prohibitive of such a strategy?  I read Stymie that you don't seem too confident in this approach?

 


Edited by Grimgi Ironside, 09 October 2014 - 06:40 PM.


#6 Stymie Jackson

Stymie Jackson

    Dwarf King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,555 posts

Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:48 PM

I read Stymie that you don't seem too confident in this approach?

 

The ability of fast enemies to focus in on one unit at a time, while chaffing up our potential responses from our combat blocks, is what has me worried. Since we can only have four units vanguarding, enemies that use decent amounts of chaff can pull that off.

 

The key I feel would be the balance of gyros, rangers and irondrakes to deal with chaff, allowing the blocks to support each other. You'll have to be a damn good general to pull that off!

 

Therefore, I feel that Vanguard and Ambush must go hand in hand, and not as seperate lists. Ambush confuses and distracts the enemy, and prevents them from focusing as they have to worry about a block of miners showing up in their flank or rear.

 

What really kills it is this list is ideal for Master Rune of Flight, a fighty King and Trollhammers, and that will be tough points wise!



#7 marky

marky

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 299 posts

Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:09 PM

I'd probably go 4 gyro, and take a few 5 man slayer units. Big blocks could be really easy to take apart otherwise (with skaven anyway)

#8 Krudd Kraggsson

Krudd Kraggsson

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 550 posts

Posted 09 October 2014 - 10:59 PM

I think - as a lot of people have said - it's got to begin with two big stubborn blocks, one of stoic longbeards for your core (accompanied by a strollaz bsb) and one of hammerers.  Stubborn is key, because with just a few big units, you will often get flanked.

 

After that it's a question of what to take as a third block (fitting four large units in 2400 points is hard!).  Miners and rangers are a sensible choice because they save you the cost of a 50 point banner.  I prefer rangers.  Miners will be good against enemies in a static battleline for a rear charge, but actually an ambush list will probably be less effective against a mobile enemy, even with the element of surprise.  I'd rather have 20-30 crossbow shots at close range to dispose of fast opponents, than a unit that can't get into combat until at least turn 3, and can only really be sure of catching warmachines because everything else will move away once they see where it appears.

 

If you don't take a big unit of miners/rangers, (and you should take at least a 5 man ranger unit to protect vanguard), then the other options are irondrakes for the shooting, or slayers because they're unbreakable.

 

Disclaimer: I've yet to run the strollaz list that I've been working on, but I have given it a lot of thought :coffee:, honest...  Just listen to Swordthain if he chimes in!



#9 Swordthain

Swordthain

    Dwarf King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,004 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:10 AM

Thanks, Krudd! And here I am. I'm planning to take my ambush army to the Bluegrass Brawl next month--provided I can actually make it, you know how you have to make money at a job to buy food and stuff sometimes makes you miss the really fun stuff in life... Anyway, I'm getting a game in tomorrow night with the force, and I'll be sure to post the report. Again, I'm running 2 Runesmiths, BSB, Bugman, 40+ Longbeards in one unit, 35 Bugman's Rangers in one unit, and 40 Miners in one unit, and finally, 2 Gyrocopters. So far, I've been happy with the army's performance.

 

I'm actually not too concerned about avoidance armies with this force. With both of my main units being Stubborn (Bugman's Rangers might be T5, which... whatever), I'm thinking I can just spread the frontage of my units out and block enough enemy elements in the bearded wall to trap the points I need for a win. Using one board edge, I can bring my Miners in on the other flank and then draw the net in. I haven't had to try that yet, but the plan seems sound in theory.

 

I am really skeptical about a pure Strollaz army... I don't have the experience to say dogmatically that they won't work, but all it would take is a single enemy unit to block your Vanguard moves. With my ambush army, at least I have the ability to use my opponent's chaff against him by using the to screen my big units until I have the chance to get into position. The MRoGrungni covers both my Longbeards and my Rangers, since I only have two units that need that protection, but significant enemy shooting together with a good amount of chaff in smart hands could still pose a real threat to a Dwarf ambush army. I will say that I have seen a lot more scouts over the course of the last year or so, which makes that Vanguard ability a lot more tenuous than I like, so it's a risk. A lot of folks don't see a lot of benefit that scouts add to their armies, so that's helpful at least.

 

I'll get a few more games in with my ambush army next week, too, so look for those battle reports coming up soon. Dwarf ambush armies are just not popular, so the best I think we can do right now is to simply build a repository of experience (i.e. collection of battle reports) and let that experience speak for itself.



#10 cptfluffy

cptfluffy

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 243 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:17 AM

I've read through numerous Strollaz lists/ Ambush lists (Strollaz Seems the most common). Using these playstyles I feel requires a different mindset from all other dwarf lists and more onto the rest of WHFB. In that you are advancing and need supporting units.

 

I read posts all the time with people planning on using WMs + protection group or Slower units to save on Vanguard. While you may be able to justify a WM by itself like some other armies do, the key is to have as many bodies in the fray and supporting each other. Between the two, I find Ambush (including Miners) to be the most competitive. It may be the way I play, but I see these lists as needing a few "big" units that can weather a storm and move on. The cost of unique Vanguard banners translates to a bunch of bodies that could have been in the fight earlier too me. Also, I find/read a rare bat rep of a Strollaz list doing consistantly well. Not that it cannot do well, I have just always talked myself out of trying it...

 

As for Ambush, I could short cut this by repeating what others have said... Read Swordthains Batreps. I use a list very similer to his own (a few bodies tossed around). This weekend I plan on using it for a game or too, may even request an avoidence army to really put me on my toes. I'll try and make some bat reps.

 

 

 



#11 Swordthain

Swordthain

    Dwarf King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,004 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:27 AM

That would be really helpful, actually! I will look forward to your reports, whatever you end up facing off against. :yes



#12 cptfluffy

cptfluffy

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 243 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:47 AM

Yeah, I have been out of town so haven't had a chance to play in weeks. And football has really cut into my free time. Currently only have about 7 games using Ambush and I'm 6-1 (though some really close). I feel like this is a great type of list to use when someone is bored of seeing the same old dwarf lists... Anyway, I will do my best to stay sober "enough" for good notes and a decent Bat rep.



#13 Landy

Landy

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 298 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 05:33 AM

One thing I havent seen suggested yet is to use great quarrellers for one of the big strollaz blocks. The simple idea being that they can offer good fire support before closing and chewing stuff up with the GWs. Is there a reason this hasnt been discussed?

Edited by Landy, 10 October 2014 - 05:34 AM.


#14 Grey Seer Kwokka

Grey Seer Kwokka

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 05:40 AM

One thing I havent seen suggested yet is to use great quarrellers for one of the big strollaz blocks. The simple idea being that they can offer good fire support before closing and chewing stuff up with the GWs. Is there a reason this hasnt been discussed?


Probably because it's due to Quarrellers not having access to runic standards outside of the BSB being with them.

#15 Landy

Landy

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 298 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:18 AM

One thing I havent seen suggested yet is to use great quarrellers for one of the big strollaz blocks. The simple idea being that they can offer good fire support before closing and chewing stuff up with the GWs. Is there a reason this hasnt been discussed?

Probably because it's due to Quarrellers not having access to runic standards outside of the BSB being with them.
And then having the BSB with quarrellers is too squishy?

#16 Grim1

Grim1

    Dwarf Lord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,588 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:31 AM

move or fire rule makes quarrellers far less useful than irondrakes as missile support for a fast moving big block.



#17 kgkid

kgkid

    Dwarf King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,006 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 10:25 AM

Also, Quarrellers have sufficient range of fire to support your troops anyway, with no real need to march along.



#18 Ozariig

Ozariig

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 10:49 AM

If we're comparing Irondrakes to GW Quarrellers, we might as well bring in Rangers too. Scouting is better than Vanguard, they have Throwing axes, and they cost the same even before you take the Strollaz rune.

 

But I think Landy is talking about how to use your core points in a Strollaz army.  I don't think its a bad idea at all.  If you have to move your Quarrellers after deploy, a Vanguard move is probably the best way to do it. 

 

You have to be careful that they don't get flanked or have a bad facing, or else they will spend most of the battle neither shooting nor charging. I think the risk of this is significant if you deploy them forward against a highly mobile army.



#19 Krudd Kraggsson

Krudd Kraggsson

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 550 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:19 PM

If we're comparing Irondrakes to GW Quarrellers, we might as well bring in Rangers too. Scouting is better than Vanguard, they have Throwing axes, and they cost the same even before you take the Strollaz rune.

 

Yea, go with rangers (especially if you throw in Bugman).  You need two big combat blocks anyway, so one of them might be as well be longbeards to fill out the core.  Rangers do exactly what gw quarrellers do, but 35 points cheaper and more flexible.  Also putting 600 points into a 40man quarreller block which can't take a rune of stoicism is a bit risky.



#20 Grimgi Ironside

Grimgi Ironside

    Dwarf Warrior

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 130 posts

Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:46 PM

Considering Irondrakes, would it make sense to take two medium blocks or a single big block, possibly accompanied by the BSB?

I'm thinking 30-ish, FC since they will wind up in CC, with a Runesmith to follow along and give them AP.

For Banner runes, I'd put two Slowness Runes on the Irondrakes Banner, and then add Strollaz & Stoicism to MR Grungi on the BSB.  Expensive, and in fact I'd consider not taking Stocism on the BSB since then the Stubborn is dependent on the BSB living, which is a risk move in my mind.  But with 2xSlowness and Vanguard, it means the big block of Irondrakes should be shooting sooner, and more often. 

If taking two Medium blocks, I'd look at 12-14, with Musi & Standard, and just to Strollaz on both (and 1 with Sancturary to satisfy the rule of Pride).  Enough shots to be scary to chaff and keep the way clear for your big blocks.  Almost imagine them in the way Empire Detachments are supposed to work fluff wise.

 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: miners, rangers, strollaz

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users