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Comparing Longbeards W/ Shields To Ironbreakers

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#21 Swordthain

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 02:23 PM

I think I probably see more chaff than you do, but not as much as it sounds like the west coast uses. Either way, with a Dwarf army, I'm not going to win the chaff war, nor am I going to get to dictate the matchups in combat. The conclusion I came to is that there is just no use trying to win either of those. Instead, I need to find a way to make that work for me rather than against me. A horde of Shieldbeards with a RoStoicism on their banner does that--using Core points! With this unit on the table, I can push it down my opponent's throat, confident that my opponent will have to basically kill the unit to the Dwarf in order to keep away from my Hammerers. I can very consistently take out my opponent's chaff units that pose critical threats with shooting from Organ Guns. It takes some skill in reading your opponent and assessing the spacial distribution of tactical elements and their positions and potential movements, but that's mostly just a matter of intentionality in measuring and analyzing. You tend to do pretty well with that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you really have to decide which you want. You're just not going to have the points available with all the other requisites to take both a decent unit of Ironbreakers AND a decent unit of Hammerers. I prefer to have the Hammerers, meaning that Longbeards with sword-and-board are just a fantastic counterpart for them. I'll link a couple of battle reports below so that you can maybe ascertain some of the differences for yourself, because if you're going to use Ironbreakers, you'll have to get your high-strength attacks from Core, meaning either "Greatwarriors" or "Greatbeards" as their counterpart. (Negotiating the MRoGOE is also something I just cannot seem to do successfully at 2500 points, due to the cost of the Rune, so I acknowledge I do have some obvious limitations in my perspective.)

 

http://www.bugmansbr...till-dead-urty/

(I use Hammerers in these battle reports.)

 

http://www.bugmansbr...3-game-tourney/

(I use Shieldbeards in these battle reports, and the tactical concept of maneuver is virtually identical between the Shieldbeards and Rangers as it would be in a more conventional force between Shieldbeards and Hammerers or Ironbreakers and Greatwarriors.)

 

http://www.bugmansbr...mal-tournament/

(I use Shieldbeards in tandem with a horde of Greatwarriors (essentially the same tactical relationship you'd have with Ironbreakers and Greatwarriors or Greatbeards) in these battle reports. These were the first games where I used my Shieldbeards in horde formation.)

 

http://www.bugmansbr...vc-and-daemons/

(I use Ironbreakers in tandem with two hordes of Greatwarriors in these battle reports. They're a couple of my worst BatReps, but they were important enough, I think, that they warranted sharing. The discussion is also good in the comments.)

 

http://www.bugmansbr...ame-tournament/

(I use Hammerers in tandem with Greatwarriors again in these battle reports. These were my first games with the new Dwarf army book, I think.)

 

http://www.bugmansbr...-vs-dark-elves/

(I includ this last one so that you don't make the embarrassing mistake I did if you so choose to use Longbeards.)  :blushing:

 

You'll note that in most of these battle reports, I haven't made much/good use of Gyrocopters. I've played several games now where I've included two Gyrocopters in my force, and it's made a huge difference! They really shine, and 2 seems just about perfect. (Three would be happy, 4 would probably be too many.) But 80/100 points has to come from somewhere... Hope some of this helps on some level.  :hope:



#22 Grumpy Runelord

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 03:12 PM

Longbeards vs Ironbreaker... Quarrellers vs Thunderers... Cannons vs Grudge Throwers... Hammerers or Ironbreakers...

It really all boils down to what do you prefer. I cant really see any real difference between Greatbeards/Ironbreakers and Shieldbeards/Hammerers. The first is a bit more defensive than the second. Do you prefer this? Go for Ironbreakers :-) The second combo is more offensive. Is this what you prefer? Go for Shieldbeards. 

 

Of cause Ironbreakers are much better than Shieldbeards. Ironbreakers (Special) are elite, while Longbeards (Core) are simply old dwarfs with long beards. And this is why this sort of topics tend to turn into a "hammerers or Ironbreakers" debate/quarrel/fight. The way I see it, the Longbeards are the best choice. They are not just core - they are hard core! Make them subborn with Stoicism or Groth and let some kind of Great weapon unit flank your opponent. However I used Ironbreaker in my first games with the new book and they seldom failed me :-)

 

And read those battle reports posted above. Great reading and great learning :-)


Edited by Grumpy Runelord, 03 October 2014 - 03:13 PM.


#23 Bimli

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 03:29 PM

shield beard vs iron breakers a few things to take into account.

 

Sheilds beard are immune to phyc and within 6" lets units re-roll panic so they are mini bsb's and 1 poitn less than IB

 

Iron breakers have better armour in far and close combat

 

Which is better is tough are for the army shield beard are better in the sense they do things for other units for a straight on fight/survivability IB are better.

 

The 1 huge difference is the fact that LB are core so you have to take them and IB are elite... so it will depend in the situation your are facing.

 

So whats better when you want to field hammerers sheild beards.... whats better if you want to field GW LB and/or warriors IB if you want an anvil.

 

in the end none is really better than the other just depends on the situation you are aiming for... basically what do you want to do based off that you'll know which is the better option in that spcific situation.



#24 Gyrocopter Pilot

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 03:36 PM

I've found that taking a nice fat unit of shieldbeards is worth it if only because they are a core option.  This leaves my lists open for more options in the special area.



#25 Swordthain

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 04:47 PM

While Grumpy Runelord's point above is well-taken, I think there's a little more to it than that. Someone else said recently (maybe a different thread?) that we have these ongoing debates in the Bugman's community, because all we really have to work with is infantry and war machines. So, GR is right to a certain extent. On the other hand, some important differentiations exist between each of our war machines and each of our infantry options. This discussion is a point in case. For those of you who want to take a nap and need something to read in order to get you to sleep, check out the tutorial in my sig. It actually talks about some of these issues (in general, broad terms, mostly) and may prove helpful when trying to organize your thoughts and assessments of your critical assets for building a Dwarf force.



#26 Granitbeard

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 04:52 PM

Don't forget that Ironbreakers are Ld10.



#27 Rayn Oathforge

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 06:34 PM

To sum it up: it's awesome the Dwarf book has so many choices to build from. I almost wish we never come up with a netlist because it stagnates the book.

#28 Rayn Oathforge

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 06:36 PM

Plus our forum is by far the friendliest. We have debates on builds and strategy, some of the others just trash talk each other.

#29 Swordthain

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:08 PM

I really think you're right, Oathforge! It's like night and day coming over here from Warseer, and in terms of activity, some of the other faction-specific forums, folks really tend to engage each other actively and with depth of thought.



#30 Bimli

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:21 PM

Plus our forum is by far the friendliest. We have debates on builds and strategy, some of the others just trash talk each other.

 

What no trash talk!!!! my list is the best!!! What I say is always right!!! death to the false emporer... oh wait...

 

I agree this is a friendly forum so hats off to all you great dwarf generals!!! :)



#31 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:31 PM

Even the biggest hammerer boosters recognize Ironbreakers are damn good. It's just that Shieldbeards complement Hammerers better for the many reasons outlined.

 

If I didn't face so many Skullcrushers, Demigryphs, Beasts and Knights of all kinds I'd probably use Ironbreakers more myself. I've been proxying them against my TK buddy (they are the single Dawi unit I do not have, and I'll be correcting that this winter) and they do better than Hammies in that matchup (TK is my regular opponent). He doesn't run Snake Riders to be fair.

 

 



#32 Rayn Oathforge

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 08:03 PM

Even the biggest hammerer boosters recognize Ironbreakers are damn good. It's just that Shieldbeards complement Hammerers better for the many reasons outlined.


If I didn't face so many Skullcrushers, Demigryphs, Beasts and Knights of all kinds I'd probably use Ironbreakers more myself. I've been proxying them against my TK buddy (they are the single Dawi unit I do not have, and I'll be correcting that this winter) and they do better than Hammies in that matchup (TK is my regular opponent). He doesn't run Snake Riders to be fair.


On a completely unrelated topic, Stymie is there a way we can sticky your updated builds post? Some people have been asking for successful lists/templates to build on.

#33 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 08:06 PM

Yell at Taz or Khazadson...I believe they are moderators.

 

I haven't updated it in a few weeks since most of the latest lists are minor variations. Anyone can feel free to message me if they want to change their list or put up a new one.



#34 Swordthain

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 11:30 PM

I'll have to check that out again, since I probably haven't looked at it since it was last updated. I definitely appreciated the insights so far.



#35 The Peacemaker

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 03:51 AM

SustainableCenter:

Have you considered using a smaller unit of hammerers? 

I ask because if you have a unit like ironbreakers as the anvil then you only need a few hammerers to bring a punch. Their base 2 attacks allows them to go in smaller units and still deliver a whole bunch of hits.

 

Alot of the time you will only be clipping enemy units anyway and just getting partial attacks.

And big units attract big attention.



#36 thesustainablecenter

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 09:11 PM

SustainableCenter:
Have you considered using a smaller unit of hammerers?
I ask because if you have a unit like ironbreakers as the anvil then you only need a few hammerers to bring a punch. Their base 2 attacks allows them to go in smaller units and still deliver a whole bunch of hits.

Alot of the time you will only be clipping enemy units anyway and just getting partial attacks.
And big units attract big attention.


I have and my dream would be a unit of both. But consensus is that a unit of each sabotages points from the list and gets you a weaker build overall.

#37 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 08:31 PM

Well, we can go by real world results. The two best US Dawi generals, Monty and Rayn, both build their lists around a hammerer block, not Ironbreakers.

 

I'd love to see a list place well at a US GT with Ironbreakers, just to be contrary to general wisdom. Who's taking on the challenge?

 

Monty also uses Shieldbeards, and is converting me over from my Warrior horde. Which is a pain, I'll need to strip and redo my longbeards now as my warriors look much better. So in this sense, Shieldbeards>Ironbreakers and Hammers>Ironbreakers by his results.

 

Of course, Rayn uses GREATbeards in his core to make things confusing. Lotta S6 attacks even in today's changing meta apparently works real well, matchup dependent of course. This does detract from the Shieldbeards>Ironbreakers argument, but it also backs up the idea that high strength can be better than survivability, or Hammerers>Ironbreakers.

 

These > is not comparing the units in a vacuum, it's considering core vs special vs total army design. I mean, Ironbreakers are obviously better than shieldbeards in a vacuum for 1 more point. It's not even close IMO. But when looking at a total army build...

 

Yeah, good times to be a Dwarf general. Many competitive choices.


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 06 October 2014 - 08:33 PM.


#38 Granitbeard

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 08:43 PM

 

I'd love to see a list place well at a US GT with Ironbreakers, just to be contrary to general wisdom. Who's taking on the challenge?

 

 

If I could go, I would do that.

 

One can make a good list that uses both. I have done it, but it means I have little shooting. I really like having that one GT at least so, I try to take that over hammerers.



#39 thesustainablecenter

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 09:41 PM

I think I'll take the challenge and for the crossroads spring gt, or if I go to one earlier, I'll do just ironbreakers and see how it goes. Unless my play testing beforehand proves them inadequate of course.

#40 Rayn Oathforge

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 01:24 AM

I think I'll take the challenge and for the crossroads spring gt, or if I go to one earlier, I'll do just ironbreakers and see how it goes. Unless my play testing beforehand proves them inadequate of course.


The Ironbreaker Challenge! Sounds like something Adam Richman would try on Man vs Food. Ironbreakers definitely do have a place in a competitive GT army, they would just require finesse and good placement to brick up the worst of the threats and grind them down.





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