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Comparing Longbeards W/ Shields To Ironbreakers

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#1 thesustainablecenter

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 05:05 PM

I'm sure this has been covered but unless I get a link to the thread its just easier to start a new one. What the opinion on these 2 units in a side-by-side comparison? There virtually the same, except that for 1 more point you get 1 better save and constant 5+ parry. Seems obvious that you would take ironbreakers. However, they occupy special and you need to spend in core anyway, so why not just take longbeards who do it almost, but not quite as good? The bigger issue I find when crafting a list is that I cannot afford a large unit of hammers and a decent sized unit of unit of ironbreakers simultaneously, and a unit at S6 is essential nowadays. You could take longbeards w/ GW, but there the same cost as a hammerer and hammerer's are way better with 2A, stubborn, and 75 point magic std.

 

I can crunch the math but the difference is marginal, ironbreakers make 1/6 more saves, which doubles in the case of S6 attacks where they would get a 6/5++ compared to just a 6++ for the longbeards assuming they weren't charged that turn. 

 

I'm asking for the longbeards to give me from practical experience which setup is better? I think being in the era of the elf tips it to the ironbreakers, as the extra defense helps to be elves, but I'm uncertain, especially when Archaon and his horde comes to town shortly.  



#2 Salgar

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 03:48 AM

Ironbreakers are better. They are supposed to be better, and they are.

Shieldbeards are what you take when you don't have the points in Special for any (more) Ironbreakers.

#3 Nihmwit

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 03:59 AM

Ironbreakers out-perform Shieldbeards in just about any match-up, so it's hard to quantify.  The only thing that 'beards have on IBs is that they're core.  Seriously, just mentally run a equal points against some example units like Grave/Tomb Guard, Ironguts, Phoenix Guard, White Lions, Executioners.  IB are also the best unit to put an oath stone in; it turns the unit into a near unshiftable rock.



#4 Landy

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 05:00 AM

You're right. It has been discussed before.

http://www.bugmansbr...r/?fromsearch=1

And as far as what is easier, I'm sure it would have taken you less time to do a search (that link was the top result, with some other threads that also covered the topic somewhat) than to write up your post.

#5 thesustainablecenter

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 12:28 PM

You're right. It has been discussed before.

http://www.bugmansbr...r/?fromsearch=1

And as far as what is easier, I'm sure it would have taken you less time to do a search (that link was the top result, with some other threads that also covered the topic somewhat) than to write up your post.

Helpful to see the hammer v ironbreaker debate, mine's a bit different comparing them to longbeards however. It seems that the dwarf book has grudges built into it, where each selection is elite and good, and we fight forever for the most marginal of gains. 



#6 Landy

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 01:40 PM


You're right. It has been discussed before.

http://www.bugmansbr...r/?fromsearch=1

And as far as what is easier, I'm sure it would have taken you less time to do a search (that link was the top result, with some other threads that also covered the topic somewhat) than to write up your post.

Helpful to see the hammer v ironbreaker debate, mine's a bit different comparing them to longbeards however. It seems that the dwarf book has grudges built into it, where each selection is elite and good, and we fight forever for the most marginal of gains.
Sorry, page two is where the longbeard v ironbreaker discussion starts. I forgot that the original title was hammerers v ironbreakers! Oops ;)

#7 Swordthain

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:06 PM

It's Anthony, right? If so, I'm a fan of your channel. I wanted to see if you still had any questions. I've used both Ironbreakers and "Shieldbeards" a good deal now, so I might be able to give you another perspective on anything you might be feeling uncertain about. Welcome to the Brewery, by the way! I hope you'll find us a good deal more sociable than all the Dwarfs with whom Landy seems to be familiar! ;-)


Edited by Swordthain, 02 October 2014 - 04:08 PM.


#8 thesustainablecenter

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:39 PM

It's Anthony, right? If so, I'm a fan of your channel. I wanted to see if you still had any questions. I've used both Ironbreakers and "Shieldbeards" a good deal now, so I might be able to give you another perspective on anything you might be feeling uncertain about. Welcome to the Brewery, by the way! I hope you'll find us a good deal more sociable than all the Dwarfs with whom Landy seems to be familiar! ;-)

 

Thanks! Well I guess it depends on the list, as there's more than 1 build. I'd really like to have both ironbreakers and hammerer's in my list. But it seems that unless I make a really small unit of hammer's that I cannot achieve that. So I guess to get my horde of hammers I need to take longbeards w/ shields to do the role of ironbreakers, although not as well. Or I can take GW warriors in core and ironbreakers in special, but then I risk not having a S6 unit that I need. 



#9 Rayn Oathforge

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 05:13 PM

Depending on your artillery battery you may not need a ton of strength 6 attacks. Strength 4/5 on the charge with a runesmith for AP can still do work.

#10 Granitbeard

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 05:16 PM

Longbeards do nice. They have some special rules of their own that make them function slightly different. Over all, Ironbreaker are better to me.

 

And I would say, take Ironbreakers over hammerers. You don't "need" str6 attacks in combat it you build your list for it. If I run both Ironbreakers and hammerers in the same list I tend to take, 23-25 Ironbreakers and 12-18 hammerers and use the hammerers as a small flanker, and due to its size they ignore the hammerers.



#11 ATP485

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 06:36 PM

For me it comes down to building a list around Ironbreakers or a list around hammerers. There is no room for both. Most competitive GT lists i've read run hammerers.

#12 thesustainablecenter

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 07:02 PM

Longbeards do nice. They have some special rules of their own that make them function slightly different. Over all, Ironbreaker are better to me.

 

And I would say, take Ironbreakers over hammerers. You don't "need" str6 attacks in combat it you build your list for it. If I run both Ironbreakers and hammerers in the same list I tend to take, 23-25 Ironbreakers and 12-18 hammerers and use the hammerers as a small flanker, and due to its size they ignore the hammerers.

 

That's the ultimate question for me of balance. I need both units to be large enough to do the job, but not so large that they too many points away from the other tools I need. Using shieldbeards instead of ironbreakers helps mitigate the issue since the points come from core. But I do really like the models and want to use mine so I'll ahve a list written where there in there no matter what. but my ideal list would have both. 



#13 thesustainablecenter

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 07:04 PM

For me it comes down to building a list around Ironbreakers or a list around hammerers. There is no room for both. Most competitive GT lists i've read run hammerers.

 

That seems to be the general consensus. However the dwarf list is pretty straightforward to me at the GT level of play and the final decision is I have enough points for one horde of 14 points dudes, which do I take. The big negative to breakers is that you can get similar results out of core, but nothing does the same thing as hammerer's except longbeards, which get 1 less attack, and aren't stubborn. 



#14 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 10:13 PM

I play mostly vs VC and WOC (both run knights), so hammerers are it for me. That means no IB. I run shieldbeards and they are amazing. IB are just better by the numbers, though.

#15 Granitbeard

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 10:26 PM

Except that hammerers die to a hot breath on the back of their necks and killing Ironbreakers takes much more. And remember only the front rank of hammerers gets 2 attacks, yea it is still nice, but if your not there to attack back. Longbeards with GW are very similar to hammerers too. Instead of stubborn, they are immune to pyshicology. Which goes a long way. Also one their banner you can make them stubborn, yeah it isn't inheirent, but it can be done and in core.

 

This is going to fall into one of those "Ironbreaker or hammerer" thread pretty fast. You really have to play things out and see what works for you. I actually take both Ironbreakers and Longbeards with shield in my usually lists. And then I have a bunch of Warriors with GW. Str6 is not needed, yea it is nice, but there are ways around it.



#16 Swordthain

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 05:11 AM

I regularly run into Drones, Skull Crushers, Demigryph Knights, Trolls, Ogres, heavy cavalry/knights, etc. I love having Hammerers to deal with all of those things. Strength 6 might not be *needed*, but it certainly helps. With AP, since I normally have at least one Runesmith in the unit, 1+/2+ AS becomes 5+/6+, which is beautiful to behold! Against stuff like Skull Crushers, going from S5 to S6 (assuming AP in both situations), I imagine it virtually doubles your unsaved wounds inflicted. (I haven't done the math.)

I often play larger games, but at 2500 points, I like to move down to just two big combat blocks and the normal compliment of Gyrocopters, characters, and war machines. I absolutely LOVE the Shieldbeards/Hammerers combination!!! I always give the Shieldbeards a RoStoicism to make them Stubborn, Hammerers stay 40-strong and are fielded in horde formation. I had to experiment with my Shieldbeards: I came down to fielding them at 40+ also in horde formation. I put them in bus formation at first, but I found I just basically wasted a good amount of the unit's potential. With just two large blocks on the table, maneuverability really wasn't an issue, so I tried fielding the Shieldbeards in horde formation. It worked. I discovered, too, that the unit kept wanting more models--not because it needed them, but because the more, the merrier! I could easily fill up my entire Core requirement with the unit, have plenty of shooting to force my opponent's units to cross the board to get to me, push my Shieldbeards up to intercept and hold them up (dealing decent damage and losing fewer casualties, and finally, swing my Hammerers round to flank/finish off those enemy units. My Gyrocopters and Organ Guns do a wonderful job of clearing out chaff so that my combat units (Shieldbeards and Hammerers) can do the lion's share of eliminating the enemy by destroying them in close combat.

#17 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 05:31 AM

This is going to fall into one of those "Ironbreaker or hammerer" thread pretty fast. You really have to play things out and see what works for you. I actually take both Ironbreakers and Longbeards with shield in my usually lists. And then I have a bunch of Warriors with GW. Str6 is not needed, yea it is nice, but there are ways around it.

 

It's you that's continually making the comparison :) I was only mentioning hammerers to explain why I don't use IB, not to make a comparison between them.

 

My point was this - I don't run them, but I do run shieldbeards, so I understand somewhat their capabilities, and for those capabilities, IB are statistically superior in just about every way. Their downside (besides being special and costing 1pt more, which buys you max 2 guys) is they aren't immune to psych (forget the bubble, that's what the BSB is for). That said, IB are less likely to make panic checks due to shooting



#18 Granitbeard

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 12:02 PM

I was writing that as you posted that and I was talking to the OP. Didn't read your post till right now.



#19 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 12:16 PM

ahhhhh ok :)

 

I think my comment is still valid, nonetheless :)



#20 thesustainablecenter

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 12:28 PM

I regularly run into Drones, Skull Crushers, Demigryph Knights, Trolls, Ogres, heavy cavalry/knights, etc. I love having Hammerers to deal with all of those things. Strength 6 might not be *needed*, but it certainly helps. With AP, since I normally have at least one Runesmith in the unit, 1+/2+ AS becomes 5+/6+, which is beautiful to behold! Against stuff like Skull Crushers, going from S5 to S6 (assuming AP in both situations), I imagine it virtually doubles your unsaved wounds inflicted. (I haven't done the math.)

I often play larger games, but at 2500 points, I like to move down to just two big combat blocks and the normal compliment of Gyrocopters, characters, and war machines. I absolutely LOVE the Shieldbeards/Hammerers combination!!! I always give the Shieldbeards a RoStoicism to make them Stubborn, Hammerers stay 40-strong and are fielded in horde formation. I had to experiment with my Shieldbeards: I came down to fielding them at 40+ also in horde formation. I put them in bus formation at first, but I found I just basically wasted a good amount of the unit's potential. With just two large blocks on the table, maneuverability really wasn't an issue, so I tried fielding the Shieldbeards in horde formation. It worked. I discovered, too, that the unit kept wanting more models--not because it needed them, but because the more, the merrier! I could easily fill up my entire Core requirement with the unit, have plenty of shooting to force my opponent's units to cross the board to get to me, push my Shieldbeards up to intercept and hold them up (dealing decent damage and losing fewer casualties, and finally, swing my Hammerers round to flank/finish off those enemy units. My Gyrocopters and Organ Guns do a wonderful job of clearing out chaff so that my combat units (Shieldbeards and Hammerers) can do the lion's share of eliminating the enemy by destroying them in close combat.

 

You probably need a lot of chaff as fast movers with 1+ saves can easily dictate the combat they want, and they want the shieldbeards! That's another point to highlight, controlling the engagement. Despite taking lots of gyros and maybe rangers or solo thane's chances are armies like elves and chaos and empire and almost everyone can outchaff us. Meaning they can isolate our shieldbeards and put demis or skullcrushers or white lions or whatever into that unit and beat it down. With M3 and no real fast chaff besides a few gyros that unit basically has to handle whatever its given. I think in those circumstances I'd rather have the ironbreaker as the sustained 5+ parry and the +1 armor over multiple combats will make the difference. 

 

I think you can also get away with a smaller unit of IB's, maybe as little as 20-25. If your stubborn the goal is just to hold to the last, and they do this the best. There stats only really shine on the 2nd and subsequent rounds of combat as the 5+ parry stays where shiledbeards go to the 6+, and the marginally better +1 save also starts to weigh in. 

 

As an east cost player I can tell you we dont chaff that much, at least not the 6+ pieces you see every west coast list have. No matter what list I go with my army will only have max 2 coptors and nothing else to clog the board so I pan to be out-chaffed. Yes 2 organ guns can plow the road, but I cannot bank on them being free to shoot 40pt hounds when there's potentially higher priority targets. So its almost safer IMO to plan for getting that unit designed to deal with low T and armor stuck on the worst match up for it, high T and high armor. Its the best way to stress test, and under those conditions IB's are worth it. 

 

Now notice I NEVER said don't take hammerer's...I feel S6 is essential, and plenty of it since it dies so fast. I think the key for me at least is to find a way to still get 20-25 IB's in the list, and leverage the stubborn bubble banner to make them hold. All the while not compromising the rest of the lists points too much. 







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