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Dwarf Rune Lore - The Missing Page From Our Book!


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#41 MeuhMeuh

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 06:46 PM

I posted a translation of this post on the french (general) warhammer forum to get them into the discution. I will post their suggestions here (as a part of them doesn't speak/read english), so they can also participate to it.
Note that no change will be added directly on the french forum, I will just edit the original post with the changes you guys bring here, and keep them updated on what's going on here. This way this post remains the central one.

 

I hope that you have no problem with that.

N.B. : I did post a translation on the french dwarf subforum too, but it is a bit under populated at the moment, if not dead :)


Edited by MeuhMeuh, 23 September 2014 - 06:47 PM.


#42 Zimron

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 02:08 AM

Awesome! the more input the merrier! - would be awesome to get the Swedish comp guys to look at it as well and get it as an FAW in their docs :D (like the dogs of war FAQ etc)



#43 MeuhMeuh

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 07:34 AM

I would like to know if the magic movement brought by the #1 spell can affect gyros. Also, the ancient power "heavy weapon" part seems odd to me, I mean, it cannot give a parry save to say : a ME without heavy weapon, or quarrelers/thunderers without shield/heavy weapons. It's the fact that the given parry save only apply to units with HW (I'm not talking about irondrakes since their armor already provides a 6++ at all time).

 

Also, I think the 3rd spell in ancient power version needs a clarification : it says that the unit count as if it had charged, and also gains hatred. If the unit is already engaged in combat and it's not the 1st round, does this spell gives the unit the reroll to hit ?

I think it would be clearer to say "the unit rerolls its missed hits this round of combat only (remember that you cannot reroll a dice more than once)", because it's odd to read as it is (in my opinion), since our units can already have hatred on a lucky ancestral grudge roll.


Edited by MeuhMeuh, 24 September 2014 - 07:38 AM.


#44 Zimron

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 10:43 PM

1 - yep can affect Gyros

2 - Ill clarify it to say "gets a parry save even if it doesn't have a hand weapon and shield"

3 - The idea was they count as charging (so it counts as the first round of combat all over again for the dwarf player) and they get hatred. But yes i can clarify the rule :) - ill make the changes in the next round of updates :D - any word from the French?



#45 Ysrann

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 06:12 AM

Yep, i come from the french forum too. I'd like to clarify one thing about this lore of Rune. Each rune is considered as as innate spell bound so if i obtain misscast (like 1 or 2 on a dice if I decided to cast with only one dice) is it ended the magic phase ?



#46 Narnor

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 06:30 AM

Ysrann, yes, it is in.the BRB ;-)

Zimron, if "it counts as charging" for the Dwarf player, You get "+1 Str (relentless) reroll to hit (Hatred) and +1 combat res" clearly.one of the strongest spells, i think +1 Str is fine actually :-P

#47 Ysrann

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 07:02 AM

Ok I would be sure that it's work like priests of the Empire.

 

Concerning the "count as charging" yes it's very strong. The thing is that with a maximum of 4 token storage the 4 first runes + the primary rune can be cast with only one dice. And they are all very interesting. So (need to be tested) it's seems quite easy to make our adversary use his dispell dices.



#48 Zimron

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 09:40 AM

thats the idea :D at least only #1 and #2 are practicle with 1 dice - the other two have just as high a chance to end your magic phase :)

 

and yeah i think the charging + hatred is a little OP - i might just make it +1S again :)



#49 Ysrann

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 10:13 AM

I think so. Have +1S/+1T is enough for our little beards... Add to this a Runesmith and you get a LongBeard unit with T5 S5 piercing at each turn if adversary doesn't success to dispell


Edited by Ysrann, 25 September 2014 - 12:09 PM.


#50 Ysrann

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 03:28 PM

Sorry for double post but I notice that the movement rune, which allow a unit within 24" to make a movement (not a charge), could be use on gyrocopter. My question is, this movement can bring the gyro to drop his bomb.

The exemple is : my gyrocopter make a movement of 20" at turn 1 and during magic phase he make a other move which bring him fly over a unit. Can he drop his bomb ?

Other case :

Gyro with vanguard make a 10" move (so he can use his steam gun). During magic phase the rune makes him move 10" more. So it is two different phases and he doesn't make any force march. So, can he drops the bomb with the movement of 10" given during the magic phase, and can he use the steam gun during the shoot phase because he doesn't make a force march ?

I know that it's twisted but I think we have to cover all points if we want this creation to be well considered.

Thanks for time spending to read my poor french english :innocent:



#51 MeuhMeuh

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 04:44 PM

It says in our army books that you can only drop the bomb in "other movements" phases. So no, you cannot drop the bomb with the magical move.
Also, it says that a gyro which dropped its bomb this turn cannot fire in this shooting turn.

I hope it clarifies your questions !

 

For the nerf on the second spell : remember that giving static +1S can result on a +2S if you cast it on a unit that successfully charged that turn (potentially S7 GW warriors/quarrelers...).


Edited by MeuhMeuh, 25 September 2014 - 04:52 PM.


#52 Ysrann

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 04:55 PM

Yes. I was pretty sure that it will be considered as you describe but in the army book there's no movement allowed during magic phase so I would be sure that these new rules for Anvil doesn't allow something that is forbidden in our army book.

But I confess that I forgot the rules about "dropped bom and shoot".

Thank you

 

EDIT: To finish with the gyrocopter. It's said that we canno't use steam gun after forced march. So if a gyrocopter moves up to 10" during movement phase and up to 10" during magic phase can he shoots during shooting phase ? In my mind, even if he moves up to 20"  he doesn't effect a forced march neither in movement phase nor during magic phase.

I probably seem boring and obstinate (dwarf born) but I try to cover all possibilities.


Edited by Ysrann, 25 September 2014 - 06:15 PM.


#53 Zimron

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 12:17 AM

its not a march so yes it can shoot - i don't think its game breaking :) (certainly not as bad as a flying shadow mage with purple sun... )- no you cant drop bombs as they can only be dropped during the "Remaining Moves Phase" :)



#54 Ysrann

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 12:01 PM

Is these new rules modify the fact that a dwarf army can take multiple Anvils ? Cause if not, should be possible to limit the cast of ancient power only once per magic phase and not once per Anvil per magic phase. Cause it could be too powerfull (even if it costs a lot to take 2 anvil)



#55 Zimron

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 10:40 PM

Hmm i hadn't considered the twin anvil - but its quite costly and you'd need to play a pretty big game for it. - if you do test the two out and let me know :D I dont own two myself so I cant :(



#56 Ysrann

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 09:11 AM

Ok I'll try asap to make 3500 pts game with 2 anvils and I'll make a little report (I feel that my adversary will disgust theses anvils...).



#57 GrumbleBeard

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:10 PM

I really love your ideas Zimron. I wanted to do something like that myself, but you did such a great job I will follow your rules instead.

 

There is a few things I consider important to keep in mind :

-first one is that since we need our opponent to allow house rules like this, its important to make them balanced or slightly underpowered. I d rather have my opponent consent every time and playing okay rules that doesn't weight on the game too much than having to deal with the delicate situation where house rules made me win.

-to help giving this a genuine look, it must look as much professional as possible. Thats why I like the "missing page" idea so much. Please make a good looking printable page like you did once the rules are refined enough to be "official"

 

About the rules themselves :

I love the concept and the passive attribute. I'm not too sure on the casting values, this need some testing. I think the goal to achieve is being able to cast 1-2 spells tops per magic phase against a regular level4 caster. I tried to emulate a magic phase by throwing dices multiple times, and so far it seems to be that way. I find it difficult and strategic (as it should be) to cast the spells I want against a caster with +4 for dispels.

 

I enjoy the idea to have something for mobility like we used to with the old anvil, and I also love the idea to reroll parry saves or having a parry save with 2 handed weapons... but I'm not sure about mixing both in the same spell. It seems counter intuitive to me. If i want to have a better parry, its usually because I'm expecting a charge, or if I'm already in close combat... either way I cant or don't want to move (except maybe for backing a few inches), wasting the first part of the spell.

 

Another thing I don't like too much is the rune of calming, level power 19 and two tokens for a +1 dispel ? I ll need to throw 6 dices for that... I don't see myself casting this ever, its too costly for too little gain.

 

The rune of roaring grudges, its fine but maybe the master rune effect is a bit disappointing considering how creative are the other mater rune effects. I don't have a better idea at the moment though.

 

Here are my suggestions :

-Rune of Wrath and Ruin Ancient

Change power change to stay 2D6 Strength 4 instead of strength 5, but add a cripple movement effect if it manages to wound at least once : the model have half his movement speed (rounded up) for the next move phase, or lose flying. Might want to lower the casting value a bit.

 

Reason : It adds some flavour and some utility and mimics the old anvil, but less powerful since its not automatic, and can fail, especially against hard to wound monsters. I prefer utility to raw power, and I think its more acceptable for an opponent than seeing his unit get wiped.

 

-Rune of Hearth and Home

Stay like that but add that if the unit was already engaged, it counts has having one extra rank than it already have if its an infantry unit.

 

Reason : Adding versatility and making the first part of the spell useful when already engaged.

 

-Rune of Hammer and Iron

I might suggest changing the ancient power to "reroll to wounds" instead.

 

Reason : Its significantly less powerful, but it will have some use during our turn if the unit charged or not, plus it doesn't overlap with any of our abilities. I'm not too sure about this one, as I like both ideas.

 

One possible solution would be to add the "count has having charged" to the rune of Hearth instead of the extra rank if the unit is already engaged.

 

-Rune of Calming

Change the -1 power dice pool to +2 spell casting values to the spell known by the wizard targeted.

Change the Ancient power to have a much lower casting value and 1 token cost, and let Valaya's blessing give every dwarf unit 24" from the anvil having one more magic resist for one turn.

 

Reason : Its annoying (and dwarfy) and not too powerful in my opinion, and more fun than just removing a dice. Having more magic resist synergies well with our rune smiths and banners

 

Either way I think something has to be done about the Ancient power and especially the casting value.

 

 

 

That's it for now, what do you think ? :)

 

I ll keep looking for ideas and rune some simulations. Please keep this project alive !

 

Just one last note : having spells on the runelord and runesmiths without the anvil is okay for some optional rules for fun, but I support the idea spells should be anvil only as for the core rules of the "missing page".

 

 

 

PS : english is not my first language, please accept my apologies for the spelling mistakes

 

 


Edited by GrumbleBeard, 04 October 2014 - 05:14 PM.


#58 Zimron

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:17 AM

Thanks for your feedback GrumbleBeard! some good stuff there!

 

I've changed the signature spell a bit (see the original post) as i was kind of feeling the potential 12 S5 hits would be pretty bad Test for a signature - not the worst out there but pretty tough - now it stops marching and flying and makes them count all terrain as dangerous :)

 

swapped hearth and home around a bit - now its prety amazing so i've upped the casting value.

 

Hammer and Iron i've left as is - mostly because i see it as the champion yelling "HOLD... NOW PUSH" like in 300 lol :P. yes its powerful - but the lore of shadow is worse haha.

 

I also forgot to take out a sentence in Ro Roaring Grudges... and dropped the AP casting value more - i dont think it needs too much change other than adding the "things that dont roll to hit can only fire on a 4+" thing :)

 

Changed the AP value of Calming down by 3 and made it +4 - effectivly dispelling like a level 4 + 2 for being a dwarf? worth the two tokens now :)

 

 

Ill remake the PDF shortly :)

I want to get some "tourney organiser" feedback as well if possible and im asking a guy I trust about it when i see him in a fortnight. Once im happy and we have some community consensus, ill email it to the Swiss to see what they think. I would try emailing it to GW but they'd probably sue me or something... O.o 

 

 

 



#59 Zimron

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 05:44 AM

I've now added the PDF to the original post :) - also i did up some quick cards for ease of use in games.



#60 Ysrann

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:31 AM

Very good work ! I'll probably can try a list with 2 anvils in two weeks to see if its not too powerfull.

Dwarfs (magical) list :

 

LORDS

- Runelord with anvil (shield, Iron rune x2, spell eater rune, rune of stone)

- Runelord with anvil (shield, RUne of stone, rune of protection, spell eater rune, rune of furnace)

 

HEROES

- thane (BSB : rune of grungni), shield

 

BASE

- 12 quarellers (shield)

- 12 quarellers (GW)

- 25 warriors (banner, shield)

- 24 longbeards (GW)

 

SPECIAL

- 24 ironbreak (standard, rune of stoicism)

- gyrocopter (vanguard)

- canon (forge)

- canon (forge, fire)

- 15 miners

 

RARE

- 16 irondrakes (full command, rune of slowness)

 

What do you think about the list (in synergy with the two anvils) ?

 

@ Zimron : can I use your PDF (using acrobat to modify it) to translate it in french ?

 

 






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