170 replies to this topic

[Zimron]

Ill playtest it and see how it goes if it needs a nerf ill do that - I dont think its as bad as the misscast table though  

[cptfluffy]

I think you could have runesmiths and runelords take 1 or two of these runes when unmounted on the Anvil. Let the Anvil be Runelord only with the extra benefit of providing Loremaster to the Runelord who's mounted on it. 

 

That way you'll always have something to do in the Magic phase (similar to War Priests for the Empire), Runelords have a significant advantage over Runesmiths (Reason to actually take one), etc. 

 

When I first heard rumurs of us getting Bound Spells. I had assumed we would just get a page of spells too choose from that where bound spells for say "RS/RL only Talisman" or some such. But you could plug and play using your magical point allowance for what bound spells you wanted. I mean, if we don't have acess too the +caster lvl, might as well make it so we can pick and choose decent spells for any RS/RL.

 

The RS/RL already bring such verasatility in a support role (MR/AP), this would just cap it off. But, of course you need to pay for it. My next assumption was that AoD was the only way to have acess too all spells? +Cast lvls? Boosted casts?

 

This project is something I think I would enjoy, and I could get my gaming buddies to agree with, so they had another aspect of dwarf to face (even if it's still bound spells). I may talk it over and test it out this weekend.
 

[Zimron]

The more playtesting the merrier thanks for your input!

im reluctant to try making them available to non-anvil guys due to the need to work out points costs etc - I feel the anvils points justifies a full set of bounds and loremaster already so im ok with that . If you want to try setting a points cost for them though feel free to let me know and i'll knock up another "lost page" haha - maybe not allow them to go ancestral power though - and they cannot build up tokens. Just a "Rune of X triggers Y effect from the lore of Runes" etc ?

I kind of feel we shouldn't have an uber casting magic phase.. like High Elves / Dark Elves / Slaan / Tzeench should still be more dangerous in their casting phase than we are - but i do think we need to at least have a strong showing and strong dispell phase (hence wanting a rune that buffs that)

 

 

[Warbarge]

How about adding a little flavor ? (in my opinion) 

Adding a Token for every successful dispel as well.

Instead of reducing the casting value, to have the tokens act as +1 casting level each, to a maximum of 4.

On a miscast, the RL will take 1 s6 hit per token used (as already mentioned).

Thoughts?

 

I'll convince my buddies and test this Anvil version with them.

 

 

[kahlek]

I like this idea very much because with 6 spells to cast there are more for the enemy to ban..with our three now there are just two and without a casting level its easy for the enemy to ban the armour safe or the bolt..if you take lizis or high elves..we dont need to buy the anvil because i think you never cast one spell..
Why is this page not in our book *grumble*

[Narnor]

This is an incredible idea!!!

However, i have two things with This :-)

I could see a Runelord having 1 Spell, 35 points for 2 spells (like other ABs)

Another Thing is, i would see the "damage spell" and the "magic defence spell" shift place, so the magic defence becomes "signature" (since i see the dwarfs as more "Controll the winds of magic" more than "throwing Ligtning everywhere" ;-) )

This would of course make the damage spell stronger, but the signature could then maybe be a "if This spell goes through, get +1 more disbel dice in the opponent magic fase (or enemy -1 power dice) and Ancestor power is +1 to Dispel (for a total +3, +5 if MRo Valaya))

Just my two cent so far, hope this Can be played in my local games!!!

EDIT: Also, could each spell count as a "talisman Rule" (loremaster for 3 choices). Just so we cant make an Anvil with MRo Balance and 2 Ro Spellbreaking

Edited by Narnor, 20 September 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[Zimron]

No i really think this should be limited to the Anvil only - we're not a "magical" army at all and runesmiths already have solid "defence" capability. Dont forget they can also fight and have armour etc  which puts them above most other wizards for a similar cost.

 

As the anvil already costs WAY too many points, i see the points for the spells and lore-master as well as the usual anvil benifits being covered by the high cost . Overall my aim is ONLY to make the Anvil playable - not to change the way our army plays because overall i feel its actually an excellent army book - barring the anvil ...

 

So as is - this would simply allow for the anvil - at its current cost and place as Lord only, to be "worth its points" so to speak. Rune up the lord with the MRO Balanace, a couple of dispell, some more armour etc (or more wounds haha) and you have a solid caster  who wont die to a stiff breeze (only a purple sun O.O)

[ATP485]

Lore attribute: for every successful spell cast by the Runelord, remove a power dice from the enemys next magic phase

[MeuhMeuh]

The fifth spell feels kinda strange to me.
It looks very random to hit, and really in the dwarf flavor, but maybe I'm mistaken..

Apart from that, really great job, I would love more feedbacks on it !

[Narnor]

Zimron, i could Also only see Runelords getting some of these bound spells, simply because the runesmith does everything the Runelord does, but half the price!. Giving 1-3 lvls of spells (for a price) would only make the Runelord viable, instead of useless.

And I still mean the 5th spell should be toner Down to -1 PD and +1 Dispel attempt next phase (when "Ancestor struk"). Makes it less powerful (avoiding the "Dwarf shutting Down everything Fun") and easier to cast.

Also a reason i want a Runelord lvl 1 (buying lvl 2 (maybe 3?) for 35 points each as other books) simply because he then Can take the "defensive" signature, which fits the army so well :-)

Edit: the reason i see Rune of Calming as not so good is it is far too Random. A 4+ to either mean something or not is too "undvarven" if You ask me.
Also, +2 to Dispel is far too strong. With MRo Valaya (which is a good take, since you then wont have to use power dice on remains in play) you get a total of +6 Dispel! Far too much if You ask me. A +1 is sufficient, and a stable -1 PD to the enemy (Calming the winds) is better.
That is at least my thinking :-)

But whatever you do, keep up this exelent idea!!! This is incredible and GW approval or not, im gonna use this in One game or another!! You have done an incredible job for This!

Edited by Narnor, 22 September 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Narnor]

Ok Zimron, You have made me think far too much of This lore.

Bear in mind, This is just a lot thinking from my part, so if You dont see the needs for the changes, then no matter, the rules as now is Awesome!

However, what got me thinking was the Rune of Hearth and Home. In the previous edition, it gave a second move (which could be a charge) which shouldnt Come back.

However, the Anvil could give some much needed mobility, which we currently dont have.
Instead of making every unit ItP (which is almost useless for LD9/10 reroll) then why not make the units make an immidiate move, which Can be a reform, but not a march. This move does not count as a Move for purpose of Shoot or Fire (or similar effekts). However, it then should only target 1 (or 1d3?) unit if it is so.

Also, the Additional Ancestor Rune effekt with reroll Parry should have "gives the unit a Parry save or make the unit reroll Parry saves" so our GW Warriors and Hammeres get that 6+ Parry (but no reroll!) which make the spell more useful.
This os of course balanced with the 1 (or 1d3) unit restriktion (This Also counters "Gunline mentality" so it doesnt make it a "around the Anvil only" but so it Can be used like Oath and Steel rune)

Edit: Also made me think to, in a similar logik, to make the Ro Oath and Steel.target 1d3+1 units instead of, again, the "Gunline syndrome" with 12" range.
Or make Anvil mobile, so.it Can Sacrifice one Runic token so it May make a normal move (but not march or charge) that doesnt prevent Casting? :-) (but only ones pr. Turn of course)

Edited by Narnor, 22 September 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[MeuhMeuh]

I like the idea of changing the rune of oath and steel ancient power from 12" range to 1D3 + 1 unit, as the 12" range is clearly not an improvement (if you want to target a miners or ranger unit, or even a gyro..)

 

I also agree about Hearth and Home, I find the ItP kinda useless, and the reroll parry save to every unit in 24" too powerfull for only 8+ to cast..

Maybe a  change could be :

Normal casting : gives the reroll to 1 friendly unit (maybe even had a parry save for units who doesn't already have it)

Ancient power : same effect ti 1d3 +1 units on a range / battlefield ?

[Montegue]

Eh, rerolls on parry is only *really* good situationally. Rerolling six's is nice, but not amazing. If your opponent happens to charge you with the buff on, well, that's his mistake. I don't think it's that boss. 

[Gotrong Gudmundsson]

I don't think +1S is really all that cool of a spell, since we've already got high strength as it is. What I'd prefer to see is a spell that gives the unit Hatred (fits fluffwise). If it already has Hatred, or if you want to boost it, the unit also gains Frenzy. How about that?

 

Another big opportunity lost with the new book was a way to use Magic to make the Dwarves more mobile. I'd love to see a spell for moving units about in there, reminiscent of our old spell (and preferably the signature). On normal cast, one unit may make a march move as usual but in the magic phase. If boosted, D3 units may make the move.

 

It would be a great boon.

Edited by Gotrong Gudmundsson, 22 September 2014 - 03:17 PM.

[Zimron]

Thanks for the excellent feedback guys! 

 

More Changes: (only to the Lore of Runes)

 

Lore Attribute: added "If any rune strike results in Irresistible Force, after the spells effects are worked out, all stored Runic Focus Tokens are lost, and the Runelord takes a Strength 6 hit for every Runic Focus Token lost in this way. " Also changed it so only Normal strikes generate Tokens not Ancient Power strikes

 

#0 - no change

#1 - Normal Striking now = Innate bound spell (power level 3). The Rune of Hearth and Home is an augment spell that targets a single friendly Dwarf unit within 24”. The target unit may immediately make a normal move, which may be a march but they not charge. Ancient Power now = Parry with a great weapon OR reroll any failed parry saves if they have a shield

#2 - D3 + 1 units on Ancient Power

#3 - Changed around the buffs so Normal = +1T, AP = counts as charged that round of combat and gets Hatred for that round. Increased AP cost to 14

#5 - Changed it so that the enemy looses 1 PD from their pool if they have a wizard, Ancient Power now +1 to Dispell for the dwarfs.

 

 

What do you think?

 

ADDITIONAL STUFF

 

NOTE: If you choose to use the Lore of Runes with the below rules, bear in mind you are SIGNIFICANTLY moving away from a standard game with the book and hence might interfere with your playstyle if you also play tourneys (which clearly wont use these rules at all). The bonus to keeping the Lore of Runes to the Anvil in my mind; you woulnd't use an anvil at a tourney - so it wont affect the way you prep much . Anyway here goes:

 

Talismanic Rune:

 

Rune of Power 35/70/105

Forged from the bindings of the mighty Runes of Power from the legendary Anvils of Doom, these lesser runes are created by novice Runesmiths as practice for their graduatiuon to the Anvil.

 

Runesmiths/Runelords only. May not be taken by a model mounted on an Anvil of Doom. A model with a Rune of Power has one randomly determined rune from the Lore of Runes.

A model with two Runes of Power has two randomly determined runes from the Lore of Runes.

A model with three Runes of Power has three randomly determined runes from the Lore of Runes.

A model with one or more Runes of Power generates a limit of a single Runic Focus Token per enemy Magic Phase if they successfully dispell a spell. They do NOT generate Runic Focus Tokens for successful castings as they have no anvil to achieve resonance.

 

 

So this means that it does use up your runic allowance (to stop it getting too beardy haha) and ties in with the fluff a bit better. Also only a Runelord has enough allowance to get 3. You could get a max of 2 "level twos" so to speak from your Heros.

[Zimron]

The danger i think in having the runes available all around is getting 2 or more of the #5 spell off... opponents would cry

 

Hence I still hold that it should be limited to the Anvil only

[Durak]

I also say anvil only. We aren't a magic heavy army and only the anvil needs a boost. Mess with runesmiths and you need to mess with their prices

[Narnor]

I would Also say, that only Runelords should be able to but the Talismans.

A Runesmith has so Much utility now, that it is scary (Just think of 3 Runesmiths 3 Ro Spellbreaking. 3 Bound spells and Ro Furnace/MRo Passage to avoid Rule of Pride. Would be FAR too good). Also to avoid the "i have 2 Runelords with the #5 spell, and I 4-6 dice both every round" the talismans should be normal bound spells.

Thats why im.in the camp of "Talismans are Runelord only" and that they start with 1 Rune (so You dont Pay 60 points from Runesmith to Lord and then only get Mr2, a wound, an attack, a WS, a T and an I. But no more versatility in any way! Also, One lvl of normal bound spell is not game Breaking. You have to have more than one spell if You go this way, simply because You cant irrisistebel force, since the talisman then crumble afterwards).
Making the talismans normal bound spells make Runelords support for the Anvil, but You have a Hard time making Runelords "wizards" in their own right (fitting the "we are not a magic heavy army".

Also from fluff. It could Only be RUNELORDS that use these Awesome powers and have developed the patience to use Them. In No way should a normal.Runesmith, that only have been Training a few centuries, in any way get near so potent runes! Thats at least my thinking ;-)

But ones again, incredible work!

PS: another small change. The #6 spell has the Ancient power "Deal 1d6 Str 5 hits no Armour save to 1d3 units within 12" "
This has two problems.
1. The enemies hit by the template Can be Hit with This effekt (hence, what would work out first? The template or the d6?)
2. Where do You measure the 12" from? Its a template not a point.

To avoid these troubles i think these changes should suffice.
The d6 hits Can only target units NOT hit by the template.
The point is defined as "the end of the template furthest from the Anvil)
The d3 is changed to "hits all enemy units" and "the artillery multiplier from used Runic Focus Tokens is reduced by one"

This make the Ancestor strike more in line with the others (that You actually "spend" a rune to make it, but here you have to spend even more to get it). The 12" could become 6", depending on how strong it is, but needs playtesting.
And last but not least, actually coherent writing ;-)

Edited by Narnor, 23 September 2014 - 06:06 AM.

[Zimron]

Hmm the reason #6 went from "hits all units within 12" to "hits D3" was because I didn't want it to be super OP against some armies - like if you rolled well you could almost total an elf army with that spell in 2 rounds - you'd take out heavy cav, fast cav, skirmishers, msu, and individual models etc... While i would love it - its just wayyyy OTT

I should have clarified that yes - the unit hit by the template can not be targeted by the D6 extra hits from AP. I like the idea of the AP shortening the range - Ill see how i can word it...

And i only added the Talisman rune for people asking for it - I dont intend to play-test that part myself as - like i mentioned I dont want to move too far from the core rules in the book. the way I see it im just replacing the 3 "I Swear too much" bound spells with 7 good ones and lore attribute. Dont forget the runelord still doesn't roll on the misscast table so its a pretty reliable magic phase. I will amend it to be move AND cast though - not one or the other as thats just daft... 

[Narnor]

I see, the everyone in 12" Will be far far too.op i agree. But 1d3 units is just... Well, i just cant stop to think that the first time i use this, i Will get 1 more target with 1 hit or so xD

And the Runelord Thing is actually, from my point of view, Also to make him viable. Now, the Anvil.is never used, and the Runelord is only "for Fun Thor build" but they are clearly the worst in the Book as id now.

However, i Will playtest the Anvil first, then afterwards (if my opponent agree) try with Runelords. The most imporatant is that the Anvil rules works.,i.agree the Runelord Thing is secondary :-)

Edit: Also the reason i want the bound spells to not be innate on.a normal Runelord is, as You.say, they dont roll on miscast table, hence they need another "bad thing", such as irrisistebel force make them forget their spell.(bound spell rules) ;-)

Edited by Narnor, 23 September 2014 - 08:37 AM.