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2500 Hybrid: Because This Forum Doesn’T Have Enough Of Them!

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#1 Alex Hall

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:15 PM

2500 Hybrid: Because this forum doesn’t have enough of them!  j/k  I had kind of given up on Dwarfs for a competitive GT all-comers army.  They have a hard time in 20-nil environments pulling off the big wins necessary to win big.  Recently though, I had a buddy at ATC do pretty well with them, placing 7 out 40.  That’s a pretty strong showing!

 

I know reading these gets a little tedious with most of them having only minor differences but I have a pointed question or two at the end!

 

HEROES

Thane (BSB, Sh) – 156

- Master Rune of Valaya

Runesmith – 105

- Rune of Spellbreaking x2

Master Engineer (Gen)

Master Engineer

 

CORE

30 Dwarf Warriors (Std, Mus, GW) – 320

30 Dwarf Warriors (Std, Mus, GW) – 320

 

SPECIAL

28 Hammerers (FC) – 497

- Master Rune of Groth One-Eye

Cannon – 145

- Rune of Forging

Cannon – 150

- Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning

Grudge Thrower – 130

- Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Forging

Gyrocopter

Gyrocopter

Gyrocopter

 

RARE

Organ Gun – 145

- Rune of Accuracy

Organ Gun - 150

- Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Burning

 

DEPLOYMENT

This may go without saying but Engineers with Organ Guns which are entrenched.  BSB and RS sit with Hammerers.  Hammerers form center with warriors to the flanks.  All deployed 5x6 or 6x5 depending on match up.  Organ Guns probably flank the Hammerers in between the blocks while cannons and the Grudge Thrower form behind Hammerers or hill if available.  Gyros will be Gyros.

 

COMP

No unit costing more than 500 points.  No special characters.

 

THOUGHTS

My only thought is to switch Valaya for Grungni which really just depends on what I fear more; magic or shooting.  The survival boost to BSB is nice, too.  On the other hand, affording your precious dwarfs and war machines a 5++ to shooting is pretty attractive.  Your thoughts?

 

I don’t like the Grudge Thrower that much anymore since it lost S5.  I have it because I think having an indirect option to hit hiding monsters is useful.  There may be better options than the Grudge Thrower:

 

So what is better/more of an all-comer?

- A 2nd Runesmith with 2x Spellbreaker and toss Vanguard on a Gyro or something

- A Grudgethrower, as above

- An unforged cannon

- More bodies ~ 13 dwarfs?

 

Valaya or Grungni?



#2 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:53 PM

I can't get behind Valaya. I've found the extra +2 only helps a few times a game (if your opponents use stuff like a Light Council that can spam multiple low dice spells, it's way more useful) and the BSB is waaaay to fragile. Grungni or Tanked builds work awesome with Hybrids.

 

That said, if your expecting a magic beatdown Valaya isn't terrible. But the choice probably should be on the Hammerers rather than the BSB.

 

How I'd rate your questions:

Runesmith

GT

Bodies

Unforged Cannon

 

I'd rather see the GT as the 5th war machine. It will help against avoidance armies, and for popping lone models it's just as good as a cannon for 40mm and smaller targets. If your planning on dropping a war machine to go to four, I'd rate it as 50/50 as to whether a cannon or GT drops.

 

For more details, see http://www.bugmansbr...the-monty-mash/

 

Feel free to post your results with the army and I'll include it in that thread.


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 17 July 2014 - 08:54 PM.


#3 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:12 PM

Heck yeah! Love this list. With the following exceptions:

1. Drop valaya. I would have said defensive runes but with the strong WE showing, grugni might be better. Valaya is a terrible choice for bsb.

2. RoPenetration on one OG instead of accuracy.

3. If you are good at picking the right dispel targets, keep the GT. If not, go the runesmith.

#4 McCrae

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:14 AM

I would drop the muso's as they do not do much for M3 troops imo but that others find them usefull. I prefer adding champs to challenge out Characters etc to save 5+ core troops in a round of combat (think beastmen doombull, dragon etc). I would then use those points to get the ME's and Runesmiths more protection, especially if one is a general. Rune of Stone all round and a shield for the Runesmiths make them much harder to kill. 

 

I also prefer either going 21ish or 35 with the blocks, for me 30 is in-between maximizing attacks 7 wide and going for a horde.



#5 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 05:28 AM

Musicians are a must have. In an army starved of movement options, we need all the help we can get. I can't remember the last game I had where I didn't swift reform at least once. Most common are times when you are against swift opponents (often) or a scenario where you have to deploy entirely first. Other times include maneuvering after combat, setting up to take charges, or responding to ambushers

#6 Alex Hall

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:06 PM

Stymie,

Great thread there!  Pretty well sums up what I've been thinking for modern Dwarf builds.  I'd say I prefer the double cannon to cannon/GT.  Cannons do a better job at monster killing and Gyros do a better job at body thrashing (a term I've just made up). 

 

McCrea,

Yea I think Musicians are handier than Champions but maybe I'll try that option next game.  I'm sure I'll regret the loss of Swift Reforms and rally boost (it does happen).  On unit size, the main reason here is filling core.  I could cut ~6 from each unit to buy a missile troop but I just don't usually see a good return from them.  I'd rather have more bodies!  In the list below, I've got full command and 29 bodies to accomodate the RS.  I have a thing for complete back ranks or I'd add more bodies.

 

On defense runes, I just don't see any good places to cut for them.  The list is really lean!  Instead of Vanguard or the RoPenetrating I could tank up the MEs and RSs... I see more return coming from the former.

 

Taxi,

1)  the reason I brought Valaya is because my buddy at ATC ran it to great effect.  Maybe he was just lucky but I usually pass the banner up without trying it becuase Grungni seems like such a superior option.  Grungni more than likely is the superior option! 

 

2)  I've run points efficiency analysis on RoPenetrating with Organ Guns and the numbers just don't justify the investment on a math bases - unless you're always aiming at the right targets; heavy/monstrous cavalry.  Those targets are already well served with cannons.  I'd also have to find 20 points in an already pretty tight list.  On second thought, in the list below, I could swap Vanguard and RoAccuracy for RoPenetrating on an Organ Gun.  I will test that and see how it fares.

 

3)  Good point on the Runesmith, that's kind of what I thought.  I think I'll go with 2 Runesmiths for now and see how often I don't use the second effectively. 

 

I've played some games and chatted with the locals.  Here is a slightly refined list:  One character difference is GW on BSB, since he no longer benefits as much from having a shield.  I'd rather have the GW than +1 AS but if he needed the parry, different story!

 

HEROES

Thane (BSB, GW) – 156

- Master Rune of Grungni

Runesmith (Sh) – 108

- Rune of Spellbreaking x2

Runesmith (Sh) 113 

- Rune of Spellbreaking x2, Rune of the Furnace

Master Engineer (Gen)

Master Engineer

 

CORE

29 Dwarf Warriors (FC, GW) – 320

29 Dwarf Warriors (FC, GW) – 320

 

SPECIAL

29 Hammerers (Std) – 491

- Master Rune of Groth One-Eye

Cannon – 145

- Rune of Forging

Cannon – 150

- Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning

Gyrocopter (Vanguard)

Gyrocopter

Gyrocopter

 

RARE

Organ Gun – 145

- Rune of Accuracy

Organ Gun - 150

- Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Burning

 

This way, the BSB sits with the Hammerers and a Runesmith goes in each Warrior block.  Losing the Musician in the Hammerers was the only way to get them to 29... I need complete back ranks! 


Edited by Alex Hall, 21 July 2014 - 01:08 PM.


#7 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:16 PM

Looks great.

I love having some rangers though and would be willing to drop a gyro for them.

#8 Gotrong Gudmundsson

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:20 PM

I disagree with that, haha! 5 Rangers cannot compare in cost efficiency to a Gyrocopter.

 

Skimping on Runes of Stone for the Runesmiths isn't very good, I think. It's the wrong place to be pulling in points from, especially when it's such a cheap and amazingly efficient rune.


Edited by Gotrong Gudmundsson, 21 July 2014 - 09:22 PM.


#9 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:23 AM

Different tools for different jobs. There's no comparison.

 

The point is he has 3 gyros. He can do just fine with 2, but they don't easily fill the role that rangers do.

 

5 rangers often buy their points back in kills, and pretty much always buy their points in tactical advantage/extra shooting. Blocking vanguards is so good, and they really are tough little guys. I've had an opponent cast 2 death spells on turn one against 5 rangers just to try and make his wolves survive after they charged. Hint: I dispelled one, the wolves died, the lone survivor flank charged the other wolves and killed them over the next 2 turns. Seems lucky, but the rangers stomp most cheap warbeasts and a lot of fast cav. S4-S&S, T4, 5+AS, GW....  These kinds of results are normal more often than not, it's not an isolated incident.



#10 Gotrong Gudmundsson

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:15 AM

2 Gyros is not enough for the job, I'd say. 3 of them is mandatory if you want to use them in any offensive capacity since otherwise they'll get shot down before they get anywhere. It's the magical number of target saturation and critical mass. 5 Rangers can do good, but taking away a Gyro to do it will make the other two remaining Gyros half as efficient.



#11 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:56 AM

it comes down to their role. Are they a key part of your list composition, or support? I'd say your options are actually 0, 2 or 4. 0 is viable, 2 is a good number for support, and minimum 4 is required to be a viable core strategy. In some cases/pts values, 3 can fill the role of 2 or 4. I hope that made sense?

 

The easiest is to rock with none, because people seem to hate them anyway. Problem solved :)

 

I think we're entering the realms of personal opinions/preferences/playstyle. No one is right here (except for how awesome I think rangers are!).



#12 Alex Hall

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:15 PM

Taxi, I'm guessing there's a thread which has discussed the merits of Rangers somewhere.  I've looked but haven't found it yet.  If not, what are the unique uses of Rangers besides what I'm thinking;

 

- Scout/vanguard position denial (Gyros can deny vanguards w/vanguard if you go first)

- First turn charges on scouting units like gutter runners (definitely unique)

- Counter chaff and WM hunters since they can handle most of those units (Gyros can do this too)

- Can carry a banner (some GTs are using more fortitude scenarios/objectives)

 

Otherwise, Gyros are sturdier (better points denial), cheaper, more deadly in general, can hunt WM if needed, can counter chaff, can chaff (M3 chaff isn't really chaff), can march block (still useful)...

 

What would be the key reason to field a ranger unit over a Gyro?



#13 Gotrong Gudmundsson

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:33 PM

There's very little Rangers can charge early that doesn't kill them from SnS and then the following close combat. How would that be done anyway? Drop 12" from the enemy scout? If you go first you can only shoot, if he goes first he'll shoot. Even if you stayed at 12" range, you'd still have to roll a 9!

 

The advantage Rangers have over a Gyro is that they are deployed after everything else so they can adapt (but flying helps you relocate swiftly). They're better at shooting stuff at long range, but 5 Rangers wont really do much either way. They are better at charging things than a Gyro, and... uh, I don't know.

 



#14 Alex Hall

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 02:59 PM

Gotrong, when 'scouting' in your own deployment zone, you are exempt from the 12" rule and also the charge on turn 1 rule.  They deploy Gutter Runners deep to hit a warmachine, you 'scout' right in front of them and turn 1 charge.

 

Straight from the Furgil playbook.

 

Rangers can handle most other army's chaff including chaos hounds, reavers, mounted yeomen, marauder horsemen (maybe), pistoliers, gutter runners (maybe), shades (maybe), other gyros, VC hounds, fel bats, etc...  That's if they can manage to get them in combat, not easy with M3...


Edited by Alex Hall, 22 July 2014 - 03:04 PM.


#15 Alex Hall

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:19 PM

So I played a game against HE last night.  It was a tough fight but I pulled through for the win.  A change to the list I made was to drop a Gyro for the ranger unit.  I also swapped a warrior block for a shieldbeard block and a cannon for grudge thrower, puting extra points into a rune of penetrating for an Organ gun.

 

I'll talk about each element in question:  This was Blood and Glory

Rangers

Rangers scouted on left flank to prevent a reaver vanguard and threaten a bolt thrower there.  He took first turn and the reavers moved up to shoot the rangers, joined by a reaver unit from the center that vanguarded over to help.  Reavers were unable to wound a ranger and BTs shot at other stuff so on my turn the rangers charged a reaver unit who fled, then redirected to the bolt thrower but failed the charge ("12 charges are tough on stunty legs).  He then moved a great eagle in to block my charge to the bolt thrower.  I charge great eagle and kill it, reform to threaten the bolt thrower again.  With LOS opened up over the field from other events, a unit of archers fancies a chance at the rangers and kills 4 of them with particularly good rolls.  The lone ranger kinda wanders around chucking a few axes until something got bored and killed him.

 

So I think they worked, diverting a lot of attention away from my main line and disrupting his plans.  They made their points up.  That being said, and as you might imagine, Gyros are invaluable against HE especially with a White Lion BotWD unit.

 

Gyros

One vanguarded to block another reaver vanguard on the right flank.  It fled from first turn HE charges declared by both Great Eagle and Reaver unit.  He rallies.  Great Eagle fly over to either charge it next turn and reavers move up to shoot it or something.  Gyro burns a few Reavers since it couldn't make it to his blocks.  The Gyro proceeds to dodge archer and BT fire and makes its way to the flank of a Pheonix Guard block, burning it for two turns, killing some 9 models. 

 

The non vanguard Gyro moed up turn 1 and got a good template on the BotWD White Lions, killing 8 or so.  Then got shot down to BT fire. 

 

If I had another, there wouldn't have been enough elves to even threaten my line.

 

Grudge Thrower

Grudge thrower performed well.  Didn't really kill too much, it targeted a BT and then Pheonix Guard.  It was iffy, but not many good targets.

 

Shieldbeards

They took the charge from the beleigered White Lions and accompanying BSB with Ogre Blade.  They killed 8 (after whiffing round 1) or so White Lions (so only a few left) but ended up falling to their great strength after 4 rounds of combat.  Great weapon warriors could have won that fight, I think but they worked well enough.

 

Here's the list!  2500 on the nose.

 

HEROES

Thane (BSB, GW) – 156

- Master Rune of Grungni

Runesmith (Gen, Sh) – 118

- Rune of Spellbreaking x2, Rune of the Furnace

- Rune of Stone

Runesmith (Sh) 113 

- Rune of Spellbreaking x2

- Rune of Stone

Master Engineer

Master Engineer

 

CORE

24 Longbeards (Std, Mus, Sh) – 332

29 Dwarf Warriors (Std, Mus, GW) – 310

 

SPECIAL

29 Hammerers (Std) – 491

- Master Rune of Groth One-Eye

Cannon – 150

- Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning

Grudge Thrower – 130

- Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy

Gyrocopter (Vanguard)

Gyrocopter

 

RARE

Organ Gun – 145

- Rune of Accuracy

Organ Gun - 165

- Rune of Penetrating, Rune of Burning

5 Rangers

 

So I feel this list has a lot of versatility and tools available to handle a lot of different threats. 


Edited by Alex Hall, 23 July 2014 - 01:20 PM.


#16 thorgrim_thunderbarrel

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:19 PM

Taxi, I'm guessing there's a thread which has discussed the merits of Rangers somewhere. I've looked but haven't found it yet. If not, what are the unique uses of Rangers besides what I'm thinking;

- Scout/vanguard position denial (Gyros can deny vanguards w/vanguard if you go first)
- First turn charges on scouting units like gutter runners (definitely unique)
- Counter chaff and WM hunters since they can handle most of those units (Gyros can do this too)
- Can carry a banner (some GTs are using more fortitude scenarios/objectives)

Otherwise, Gyros are sturdier (better points denial), cheaper, more deadly in general, can hunt WM if needed, can counter chaff, can chaff (M3 chaff isn't really chaff), can march block (still useful)...

What would be the key reason to field a ranger unit over a Gyro?


1. A 5 of rangers is more survivable than a gyro (same toughness, 1 less AS, but 2 more wounds)
2. It is cheaper than a gyro.
3. It has a better stand and shoot than gyro.
4. It is vastly superior in close combat to gyro.
5. It is a guaranteed vanguard block, whereas a gyro requires 10 extra skaven slaves' worth of points, plus winning the dice for 1st move to fulfill that same roll.

The gyro benefits from being much more maneuverable and fleeing better, as well as the template hitting more when in range.

#17 Alex Hall

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:54 PM

Thanks Thorgrim,

 

Good points!  Gyros have T5, btw, making it far more resilient to most missile troops.  I prefer the Gyros but I'm keeping a unit of Rangers in for the toolbox.  Ya never know when the Tetto'Eko w/cold one star list will come your way!  Rangers will never do a ton of damage, but Gyros can be downright brutal to T3 armies (easily 15-20+ hits with 7-10 wounds).  So it depends on your meta!  I'm thinking GT so I need to be an all-comer.

 

I'm currently working on widdling down the core to 625 but shifting some bodies around... I'm wondering what to do with 17 points?  RoStone on MEs?  Hmm...



#18 Gotrong Gudmundsson

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 08:28 PM

Gotrong, when 'scouting' in your own deployment zone, you are exempt from the 12" rule and also the charge on turn 1 rule.  They deploy Gutter Runners deep to hit a warmachine, you 'scout' right in front of them and turn 1 charge.

 

Straight from the Furgil playbook.

 

Rangers can handle most other army's chaff including chaos hounds, reavers, mounted yeomen, marauder horsemen (maybe), pistoliers, gutter runners (maybe), shades (maybe), other gyros, VC hounds, fel bats, etc...  That's if they can manage to get them in combat, not easy with M3...

 

Oh, I didn't know that about Scouts! That can certainly come in handy, altough I usually try to protect my deployment zone from vily Shades/Way watchers. In my experience they usually deploy further up the field, so they can run around and shoot a lot more efficiently.



#19 Montegue

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 05:32 AM

Alex, I like your list quite a bit. It's reminiscent of Furgil's old list. 3 Gyros plus two cannons and two organ guns is pretty solid, I think. Wood Elf armies will have to address the Gyros before the Organ Guns or they will get steamed to death. With Vanguard, you can steam on turn one if you like, and re position two of the three gyros post deployment to deal with whatever.  

 







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