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Strollaz 2000Pts Vs Vampire Counts

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#1 Cuthbo

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 03:24 PM

My brother and I decided that if I lost this battle, I would have to stop playing with Dwarfs as he doesn't find them challenging enough to play against and it is boring for him to always win easily. I think he actually finds it less enjoyable than me!

 

Anyway, I decided that i'd try something radically different since it could be my last game with the little stunties. Zero Artillery. Strollaz plus Rangers. ZERO Magic resistance (no Runesmiths). Shocking, right? A runesmith would have been lovely actually, in hindsight, but I was a bit sick of the sight of them.

 

Bugman

 

Thane BSB with Strollaz and Stoicism

 

25 x Longbeards with Shields and Strollaz + Sanctuary

 

20 x Thunderers with Shields

 

18 x Hammerers with Strollaz

 

2 x Gyrocopters

 

30 x Rangers

 

5 x Rangers

 

His List (which he actually softened up a bit because it was seriously getting boring with all the winning)

 

Some wizard who sounds like he was in the SS (Himmler!?)

 

Vampire LVL 1 wizard

 

Wight King

 

10 x Black Knights

 

Big unit of Skeletons (Himmler and Vampire go here)

 

Big unit of Zombies

 

Varghulf (which originally was a Terrorgheist but he dropped it for fear of it being too easy)

 

Hexwraiths

 

A silly ghost or something that can't be hit unless you're using holy water

 

2 units of Wolves

 

Black Coach (he hadn't used this before but it is seriously amazing!)

 

 

Here is deployment after I vanguarded everything up (it was really fun to see him actually shocked for a change and I believe he started to think I might be on to something):

 

1

 

My plan was to get the thunderers in the building and sit there while my guys came in from the flank.

 

So just a quick run down:

 

I got first turn, couldn't charge with anyone so everything moved up. Thunderers in the building, yay.

 

His turn he charged loads of stuff in and battle commenced - the skeletons had a pop at the thunderers who were fantastic and held fast in the building. The hammerers got slaughtered by the ethereal guys moving through them. The Longbeards took a charge from the Varghulf who bounced right off and died! For the first time in ages he was sweating.

 

2

 

His magic raised all the skeletons back that I had killed in the stand and shoot by the way.

 

My Rangers charged his Zombies in the flank and wiped them out, very neat.

 

My longbeards flanked his Skeletons. 

 

Now, his magic. Curse of years almost wiped out the Rangers believe it or not. He rolled a lot of 6s. We had a laugh about how my dwarfs would never see the light of day! Then his black coach charged them and killed all but 6. 

 

(meanwhile, comically, my hammerers were stuck in a river somewhere while the ghosts flew over them each turn, killing 4 or 5 each time)

 

hams

 

So long story short, my guys flanked the hell out of his main unit (with Himmler) and crushed him. With no wizards left, he crumbled and my guys won for the first time in like 30 battles. 

 

Conclusion:

 

Ok my little Strollaz trick surprised him, and he took a softer list than usual (with even one Terrorgheist we both agree I would have lost really easily). Also, no runesmith - really didn't need him (since he usually only dispels one spell in a game!). No artillery - really didn't miss it. This list was more fun to play than usual, for both of us. 

 

Now we're wondering if we played again but he took his usual Black Knight Deathstar of Doom, would this work? How could this list be improved.

 

I'm glad he's going to let me play as Dwarfs again. Why do you think this list, out of the 30 lists i've played, won? Is it purely due to the softer Vampire units he took??

 

Sorry for the lack of detail, i'm super busy!!!

 

 

 

 



#2 ARabidNun

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 05:47 PM

I am certainly happy to know that you pulled off a win to avoid having to quit playing dwarves.  First, I play both armies quite aggressively so I know several pros and cons.  First of all VC have nearly no shooting (if you call the banshee cry shooting) as is very limited in distance, so you can easily outshoot him.  I recommend taking two organ guns, r. of forging and forging+penetration.  This will annihilate his hex wraith unit and even a black knight death star.  S5 (6 with penetrating) at -3 armor save (-4) can squish most knight units.  Two gyrocopters for harassing his weaker units (skellies and zombies with T3), and definitely take tunesmiths to counter Curse of Ages.  You want to deny him anything like magic missiles or shooting and get into combat ASAP, especially if they ignore AS.  If he continues to use terrorgheist spam and black knight deathstars then take a few ruined up OG's(with a r. of forging they almost never misfire :) ) and GT's for any hordes/monsters/chariots, then some good solid blocks centered around the M.R. Groth for stubborn (1 model left testing on LD 9 or 10 while an inevitable flank charge is pending can be very frustrating for him.

 

I played a similar list not too long ago with one terrorgheist, hex wraiths, black knights and a vampire blender and by the time he reached my lines the Terrogheist was gone, the knights down to 1 or 2 figurines and his support was in bad shape, and the vampires had great difficulty against my units with stubborn and my gyro that charge blocked his unit of 30 skellies tested on a stubborn LD9 (within the bubble) for 3 turns before being brought down by the wraith.  The achilles heel to Vampire counts is still their general, kill it or the unit and the game is nearly over, focus on that unit and have faith in the resistance of your units.



#3 Cuthbo

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 06:09 PM

Thanks for the advice ARabidNun! Believe it or not I've tried EVERY combination (including double organ guns, runed up, full artillery, mass Gyrocopters) and his Black Knight bus has remained undefeated in every game. In my local group (High Elves, Skaven, Chaos and my Dwarfs) his list has NEVER been defeated. And I think the High Elves especially were really competitive (even cheesy).

 

I think the problem has been magic - he always manages to raise as many models as we are able to kill! Plus some nasty Death magic (sniping characters with ease). The whole group are really surprised that Vampire Counts don't win more tournaments!

 

To be fair he is a very good tactician too...



#4 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:11 PM

Congrats Cutho. You've been talking about your growing grudge for a long time so it's great to see it finally struck off :)

 

It's also good to see the obvious respect you have for him (hard to come by with siblings unfortunately) and that even though you guys made a silly deal, he was willing to go softer to give you a chance :).

 

I'd like to talk about runesmiths. I think it's pretty important to have one, but I've changed my tune a little. I used to advocate loading up (mostly because of the drop in overall magic defence), If played right 1 RS can really be enough. I don't like having a RS in hammerers, so if playing 2 main combat blocks like I tend towards, there's not even a good place to put a second RS (which has been a problem for me). Taking more than 1 isn't bad by any stretch, and if you're not confident at picking the right dispel targets it can save you, but if you're careful and thoughtful, 1 (or none!) can be enough. Anyway, that's getting a bit off topic :)



#5 Cuthbo

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 06:50 AM

Thanks TaxiForBiggins, this has been a long grudge indeed! 

 

I agree about the Runesmiths. I think their main benefit is the AP and Magic Resistance rule (since the dispel rune is gone in a flash!).

 

 



#6 Theatralic

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:20 PM

Man, I am really happy for you good to pull this one off. I am not the biggest Fan of your struck Deal, a Dwarf is a Dwarf ias a Dwarf ;P, but in the end all turned out well.

 

I started out with a lone Runesmith but I really feel the need for as 2nd one. One dispel Rune isn`t nough where I play, at least it feels like it. 



#7 Cuthbo

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:44 PM

Thanks - I agree the deal was extreme and unnecessary (and I am so stubborn that I would have stuck to it). 

 

I think even 5 Runesmiths isn't ever going to be enough. In all my games the opponent gets off 1-2 game ending spells (Pit of Shades, Dreaded 13th etc) 3-4 Game spoiling spells (That flaming one where if you move the unit they all die horribly) and 5-6 annoying "ruins all your plans" spells. The ability to dispel ONE of those automatically rarely counts for much especially since they usually IF the big ones ;). I find it very tricky to dispel any spells at all normally! 

 

So i'd rather have zero magic defence and spend the points on more bodies to soak up the inevitable fire storm!

 

 



#8 Halfmad

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:02 PM

Perhaps the bargain should have been that your brother doesn't get to play VC anymore, since he doesn't have fun with them =P



#9 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:31 PM

If he's slaughtering you with magic then Strollaz is simply the only way to go. Get to grips with the bastards and smash their faces in. Can't cast spells when you're feasting on a bowl of Great Weapons. So yer probably on the right track.

 

You'll only need to survive 1-2 rounds, so that's where a runesmith or two comes in.

 

Your major concern then will be dealing with Terrorgheists (Irondrakes or Rune of Flight here) and Ethereals (cheap magic weapon runes). Try just giving your characters things like Rune of Speed or Fire to make them have magical attacks.

 

ID can also mash up Knights with shooting, and hammerers in Close Combat. I believe your chance to win or lose really comes down to lining up properly in deployment to make sure the matchups are in your favor. You do that, you have a good chance. Gyro's can tie up Ethereals and Irondrakes blast the Terrorgheist when he lands behind your lines (bring a musician!)


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 23 June 2014 - 05:31 PM.


#10 Cuthbo

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 06:27 PM

Thanks Stymie - I don't think it's a coincidence that the only game I've won against him in 30 matches has been the one where I took a full Strollaz/Rangers list! Definitely the way to go. Next time i'll try a Strollaz-ed Iron Drakes unit - they sound pretty good vs his nasty flying thingies. 

 

I hear you on the magic weapons too - I had zero magic attacks (apart from Bugman) and it seriously hurt me...



#11 Wendersnaven

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:00 PM

Thanks for the report. :thumbup:

 

Having played against VC frequently my entire 11 years at Warhammer, it is my opinion that you probably won due to the VC list being soft. Considering the tactical delay at the river, Strollas was a bit sabatoged, and magic is what keeps the vamps going/sustained. Without their gimmiks, their weak stats can't Mathhammer-ly stand up to ours, and they were crushed.  STILL- you had sound tactics and a purpose for each unit. Had you not played well you would have lost to luck swinging in his favor; such as that River boiliing your guys to death as the ethereals did their flybys, causing an unlucky panic and loss of the unit.



#12 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:18 PM

Yeah. And the fact that his brother is a very good player. I think he did really well.

I played my friends vc vs my dwarfs recently. The vc was very unoptimised, using every model he has except 2, and I still managed a win due to only a couple of relatively minor errors on my opponents behalf. He even rolled 4+ on 2 spelleaters, and blocked my vanguards and fell bats... The VC simply have the tricks to swing it back that I feel dwarfs lack. So yeah, cuthbo has an uphill battle on his hands (but, its what were good at)

#13 Cuthbo

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:08 AM

Yeah if he had taken his usual list (or even ONE terrorgheist!) we agreed that the battle would have been over quickly, in his favour. These tools he lacked deliberately:

 

Death Magic (automatic death of my characters, seriously that Bajuna thing!?)

Shadow Magic (Automatic deletion of any unit with Pit of Shades plus hexes)

Grave Guard (easily a match for every unit apart from Hammerers)

Terrorgheist (just....just don't....ugh)

Blender Lord (one of these has taken down a unit of 25 Hammerers on his own with disgusting ease)

 

In other words, yes - he took a super soft list. Still, i'll take the win :). Losing gets dreadfully boring after the first 20 times haha ;)



#14 Bimli

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 06:51 PM

woohooo nice job on the win I know youve had a hard tiem against the VC so the win must of been that much sweeter!!! Im happy for ya.

 

Im a fond believer of cannon and OG spam and 3 gryos and let not forget at least 2 rune smith

 

But if you wanna go strollaz Id do the following.

 

Put some beast characters in basically each of your units with rune smith with some slight magic weapons to kill some magical ghosts and make sure your hammerers have the banner of everyone is stubborn.

 

having stubbonr gyros is fun also when you wanna hold up a unit ;)



#15 Cuthbo

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 07:44 PM

Thanks Bimli. I don't know why but nothing I have done has ever come close to beating his proper Black Knight Bus list - including Cannon, Organ gun spam and almost every unit being stubborn haha. 

 

One day, my brother will unleash his unbeatable army on a tournament and ruin some poor kid's day...



#16 Wendersnaven

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:08 PM

Nothing is unbeatable forever- or waterproof for that matter. :yes



#17 Bimli

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:24 PM

your brother is going to RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!!!  sorry I had to :P


Edited by Bimli, 26 June 2014 - 03:24 PM.


#18 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:54 PM

There's a VC player in the NY/NJ area that has been dominating the tournament scene for several years.

 

Anyone who says VC isn't top-level competitive is doing it wrong. I consider them up there with Elf Armies and DoC as top-tier. I've been lucky to avoid him as I don't think any Dawi player has ever beaten his list.

 

Then again, most of the Dawi I see still around here run 6th edition lists with 20-25 Dwarf blocks.



#19 Cuthbo

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:48 PM

Stymie Jackson, it feels good to hear that somewhere out there another Vampire Counts army is laying waste to his enemies! I thought it was just me and my local group!! When done properly I don't think anything short of luck can bring down a VC army. Either that or this guy is NY is actually my brother...

 

To my brother: Release the Kraken (and the Black Knight Bus with the mean vampires) 



#20 IGS

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:53 AM

Perhaps the bargain should have been that your brother doesn't get to play VC anymore, since he doesn't have fun with them =P

That's why I switched from VCs to Dwarfs.







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