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Slayer Deathblow And Removing Casualties

slayer deathblow rules

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#21 Hoffa

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:01 PM

What happens when a slayer unit is wiped out on a single I step and takes more wounds than there are slayers left.

 

Let say a killy unit of ironguts lead by a Tyrant with gw. All attacks from this unit comes at the same time. Lets say the Tyrant does 5 wounds and the rest of the guts do 10. Lets assume there was only 10 slayers left and that all of them was not in B2B. How many slayers can in this case make deathblows against the Tyrant ? It can be any number from 0-5. :huh:

 

The problem here is that models that were not in b2b have been killed but there is no way of knowing who killed them as all attacks happened at the same time and there were more kills than models that could die.

 

I think the only way to assign deathblows is to allow all deathblows from a single I step to target any enemy that was in b2b at the start of that I step. (This is a bit to good but I do not think there is another solution that works for all cases)

 



#22 Wendersnaven

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:06 PM

Hmmm. A reflective example Hoffa.  You have a good point.

 

My brain hurts.



#23 Volsh

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:27 PM

Just to throw another wrench into it, what if the slayers kill all of the enemy units in B2B before running out of deathblow attacks?  Does the enemy have to step up in order to suffer the remaining deathblows?  



#24 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:00 PM

Folks are getting a bit sidetracked I think. Deathblow attacks are made against any enemy model in base contact. This means you don't have to attack the model that killed the slayer. If 5 slayers die to a tyrant, and 5 slayers die to the ogre retinue, you can apply the 10 attacks any way you want.

 

Attacks can bleed over to extra enemies, not just those on the front rank...otherwise by the same logic only slayers that die on the front rank get to make deathblows. Can't have it one way and not the other.

 

The only restriction is if the slayer dies in a challenge, and then his deathblow has to be made against the challenger.


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 10 April 2014 - 05:05 PM.


#25 Montegue

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:08 PM

What Stymie said. Death blow may be directed at any model in contact with the unit. It's a fluffy character murderer.

#26 Kohr the Unstable

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:23 PM

I disagree (with respect to my elders).

 

Let's say a 5-wide Phoenix Guard unit charges the front of your 30 Dwarf, 10-wide Slayer unit.  Then a Frost Phoenix charges in from the flank.  The PG go first in initiative order and kill 8 Slayers.

 

According to Stymie's interpretation, I could deliver my 8 Deathblows against the Frostie in the flank, even though most of the Slayers killed weren't anywhere near B2B with the monster.  As a High Elf player, I'd be all kinds of "I swear too much" about that.

 

The only way I can see to handle this situation is to allocate attacks from the PG vs. the unit so that you know exactly which Slayers are dying.  It sucks, and it'll drag the game to a crawl, but I don't see any other way to handle it fairly.



#27 Kohr the Unstable

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:31 PM

What happens when a slayer unit is wiped out on a single I step and takes more wounds than there are slayers left.

 

Let say a killy unit of ironguts lead by a Tyrant with gw. All attacks from this unit comes at the same time. Lets say the Tyrant does 5 wounds and the rest of the guts do 10. Lets assume there was only 10 slayers left and that all of them was not in B2B. How many slayers can in this case make deathblows against the Tyrant ? It can be any number from 0-5. :huh:

 

The problem here is that models that were not in b2b have been killed but there is no way of knowing who killed them as all attacks happened at the same time and there were more kills than models that could die.

 

I think the only way to assign deathblows is to allow all deathblows from a single I step to target any enemy that was in b2b at the start of that I step. (This is a bit to good but I do not think there is another solution that works for all cases)

 

Regarding this, I don't think it's really even an issue.

 

Your statement "Lets assume there was only 10 slayers left and that all of them was not in B2B" renders the point moot.  The step-up rules state that as models die, you pull them from the back rank if possible, then from anywhere on the remaining rank (remove those not in combat first) until you only have command models left.

 

The remaining Slayers would just slide over towards the attacking Ogre(s), thus bringing them into B2B.  Any other interpretation would render the Slayers NOT being B2B and thus impossible to attack by the Ogres.  So as long as an Ogre can attack the model, it's in B2B with it.

 

Unfortunately, the answer to how many Deathblows you'd get against the Tyrant would depend on which Slayers were in B2B with him when they died.  Especially since those Deathblows could potentially be assigned against the Ironguts instead, even though they were killed by the Tyrant.  See my previous response regarding this.  :(

 

Maybe an FAQ should be made indicating that the Slayer's Deathblow has to be allocated versus the model/unit that killed him.  That makes it pretty cut-and-dried.


Edited by Kohr the Unstable, 10 April 2014 - 05:33 PM.


#28 Hoffa

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:26 PM

I do not agree step, up does not come into this, there is never any step up* as all 10 slayers in my example die at the same time. So how would you determine who the slayers could death blow against ?  All ogres strike at the same time so there is now way to tell who kills who.

 

You can not roll the Tyrants attack before the unit and claim that those 5 models are killed by the Tyrant. All Ogre attacks happen at the same time.

 

*In fact there is no step up rule. What the rule say is that you remove rnf models from the back rank until there is only one rank left, then you remove equally from each end.  This is not relevant here as you will remove the entire unit at once.

 

EDIT:  There is another reason why step up does not come into this. Step up deals with models being removed but death blow happens before the remove casualties step. All models are still standing in their original position when deathblow attacks are made. 

 

Damn, Death blow is a really poorly written rule. Feels like it was not play tested much There is just a staggering number of strange situations

 

 


Edited by Hoffa, 10 April 2014 - 10:01 PM.


#29 Montegue

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:35 AM

You guys are over thinkinig it.

In the rule book, it's very clear. A deathblow attack may be resolved against any enemy model in base contact. Yes, this means that guys killed in the front can still hit guys on the flank. Any enemy model in base contact is any enemy model. It does nit say base to base contact - it's not specific. If you have a wizard up front all alone and witch elves in the flank, those slayers killed by the elves can stagger over in their last moments to find their doom slaying the wizard.

The rule is fine, and clear.

#30 Hoffa

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:06 AM

I think Montegues solution is the best, read base contact as base contact with unit and all problems go away.  No strange situations to deal with, no need to skip fast dice rolling, no need to allocate  attacks on specific rnf models, no bookkeeping of who can deathblow who and no close combat that takes "forever" to resolve. (This last part very is important to tournament players).

 

A question on death blow really needs to be in the faq as there is no clear way to read it (Proved by the fact that we are still discussing this after 6 weeks). This question must be extremely carefully worded though as GW are completely unaware of this rule being problematic and you only see the problems when you start thinking it through.

 

The problem boils down to the fact that when you attack rnf you can easily kill more models than you are in b2b with and there is no way to determine exactly what models died. For example a blender lord can allocate all its attacks on a single rnf model in the front rank, then a lot of slayers dies as excess wounds spill over on the rest of the unit. (In this case we can solve it by resolving all death blows from the model the attacks were allocated against )

 

 Some times as the ogre example I gave earlier it is even not possible to determine who killed the models being removed. (Happens if a slayer unit suffers more wounds in the same initiative step than there are slayers left).  Then a reasonable way would be to say that if there are multiple enemies that could be responsible for a "not in b2b" slayers death then the slayer can deathblow against any of them but now we are making up rules.


Edited by Hoffa, 11 April 2014 - 06:44 AM.


#31 Montegue

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 02:27 AM

Still not hard. If a unit of witch elves murders a complete unit of 20 slayers, you've got 20 attacks to dish out however you like.

#32 Hoffa

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:16 AM

I agree but how to get people to accept that base contact means with unit and not with model ? I expect massive resistance.



#33 stuntyogre

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 02:38 PM

Simple, read them the rules, unless the opponent is a massive nob I think they'll understand, and maybe think twice about how to handle the Slayers. Let's use Occam's Razor here



#34 Kohr the Unstable

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 03:17 PM

I must be a massive nob then, 'cuz I don't see how a Slayer that's killed on one end of the horde can make a Deathblow attack versus a model 8" away.  I've read the rules and the BRB uses "base contact" to refer to both a model in base contact with another model as well as a unit in base contact with another unit as well as a model in base contact with a unit.  So no, it's not as simple as you seem to think.

 

Unless you can find a specific rule instance that clearly explains this situation, please don't assume that it's so cut and dried.  You and your friends may be fine with it in friendly games, but I guarantee that anyone you're playing in a competitive environment will have issues with it.  This is a situation that needs to be covered with the TO before any tournament starts or you're going to have some serious arguments.

 

We're all going to just have to house-rule this situation until GW comes out with a (hopefully) explicit FAQ ruling on it.

 

Out of curiosity, if anyone has the iPad version of the rulebook, can you check to see if it's been updated at all? 



#35 Montegue

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:00 PM

Khor - it may not make sense, but that's how the rule is written. Because step up is vague (and that's fine, combat is not neat, it's chaotic), who's to say what happens in the heat of things. Did the giant backhand the slayer to the feet of the wizard, who he lashes out at in his dying breath? Does it really matter?

 

Death blow says any model in "base contact". Not "base contact with the slayer". Not "base contact with the model that took the wound". If a model is in combat with your unit of slayers, it is by definition in base contact. Done and done. 



#36 Kohr the Unstable

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:28 PM

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.  It's a very vaguely written rule that, for now, must be interpreted by the players in a way that's acceptable to all.  I guess my issue is with the definitive nature of "done and done" with a rule that can easily be interpreted multiple ways.  In your mind it may be rock-solid clear, but as evidenced by other discussions here and in other forums, other people don't find it so cut-and-dried.

 

From my seat, it's an issue of rules-as-written versus rules-as-intended.  I know the folks where I play try to interpret what the intent was when we run across a strange rule.  Other places don't.  As long as everyone playing the game agrees to the same interpretation, problem solved.  

 

Hopefully we'll get an official ruling sooner rather than later.



#37 Swordthain

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:25 PM

This reminds me of the conflict with the Sword of Anti-Heroes from the BRB. Notice the wording of the rule in that instance.



#38 Montegue

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:27 PM

I don't agree that it can be interpreted any other way. I'm not saying that to be obstinate or combative, don't mistake my tone. I just think the confusion stems from people making the mistake of trying to logic out how it happens in the "movie" of the fight.

Any model in base contact. Is it a model? Is it in base contact? If yes to both, it can be struck. There is no moment in which step up happens. It just happens.

#39 stuntyogre

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:26 PM

The rule is plenty clear I think the confusion comes from people reading into it too much. The clarification about challenges indicates an exception to the base contact clause earlier, that in that one instance the Deathblow must be resolved against the model in B2B that the Slayer was fighting. 



#40 TaxiForBiggins

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 11:30 PM

This has turned out to be a tedious rule... I vote we go back to doing what we've done for he last few years and ignore slayers :)





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