18 replies to this topic

[Dorack]

Hello fellow Generals. I was musing over the idea of crafting a full vanguarding army, and wanted to start a discussion about it. How would you do it? Units? Characters? I thought this would be better here to spark discussion rather than on the Barracks.

 

I’ll start with my thoughts so far, thinking about a 2500 pts army.

 

With Strollaz at 35 points, most banners supporting up to 50 pts on runes and the no repetition allowed, I thought I would start with Rangers, since they are crucial to allow vanguarding, but also means good infantry blocks that don’t need Strollaz at all.

 

So, first in are 2 blocks of Rangers, 20 dwarfs each, with full command. They add up to 620 pts, so 24,8%. This  are 2 fully functional, scouting infantry blocks, that you can even deploy behind lines if you the enemy has no scouting/vanguard himself. I know rangers are not the most loved option these days (with Organ Gun and Irondrakes around), and we could simply field 2x5 dwarf units to push enemy vanguarders, but you limit the overall number of block moving forward, as we will now see.

 

Ok, time to think on the Strollaz banners setup. And here we find a first bump. We find we can field 3 units of non-Hammerers by using these combinations:

• Strollaz
• Strollaz + Sanctuary
• Strollaz + other on BSB

Of course you might think about using Ungrim and Slayers with runic banner… let’s leave that out for it’s own thread.

Now to fill the core, and of course, no surprise here: we are going to look into longbeards. To reach the 25% minimum (because we will want points for vanguarding hammerers and Gyros on the special section), you can either go one big unit, or 2 MMU units, or longbeards with a warrior/thunderer/quarreler with the BSB.

 

The single Longbeard unit will need to be over 40 dwarf big, something I considered excessive under all circumstances. The 2 Longbeard MMU units with shields, even with 20 dwarfs each, comes up to 650 pts… A third option would be replacing one of those Longbeards with Warriors and shields, planning to place the BSB here. This 3rd option will let you have 30 Warriors with shields plus 20 Longbeards with shields with the single Strollaz rune on their banner. This option comes at exactly 625pts.

 

For purposes of this thread, I will assume this last setup, as it brings 2 “defensive/anvil” like units that go well with the 3 “hammer” units we are planning (Hammerers + 2 GW wielding Ranger units).

 

Ok, at this point we have spent 1245 pts, just over 50% of the army, and have 4 decent scouting/vanguarding blocks, 2 hammer-like and 2 anvil-like. I say we are in the good track.

 

Let’s look at the last compulsory elements for a valid army: characters.

 

Naturally, we want a General (obligatory) and a BSB (for strollaz on warriors), so basic options are:

• BSB Thane: Greatweapon with Battlestandard with Strollaz + Grungni (I know we won’t expect to receive much shooting in a vanguarding army, but we are really after the ward save for the BSB itself). He costs 165 pts.
• Runesmith General with Shield, Stone, Spellbreakerx2 at 113 pts.

Alternatively: Runesmith General with Greatweapon, Spellbreaker X2, Warding at 131 pts.

 

For this thread purpose, let’s assume we go with the last one.

 

So, we are spending at least 295 pts in Characters, with very limited magic defense. But with a vanguarding army it sorts of comes as expected, trying to hit his wizards on melee on turn 1 or 2 max.

 

We finally come to our beloved Special section. We have spent close to 1540 pts. That means we have 960 pts left.

 

I assume that with a Vanguarding army, vanguarding Gyros are a no brainer. To make this work, we will include 3 gyros, 2 with vanguarding, and leave the non-vanguard one to watch for our backs (ambushers, warmachine hunters, etc). The 3 gyros (2 vanguarding) cost 280 pts.

 

Coming to a close now: we spent 1820 pts so far, only have 680 pts left.

 

Now we need to make some hard choices. Do we want cannon? Will we want miners? Ironbreakers? I’m assuming no one will want to leave hammerers at home, but not invest in a 680 pt, 40+ dwarf unit.

 

If we decide to forgo warmachines completely, we can get:

• Hammerers/Ironbreakers X 16 with Strollaz and Ancestors for 309 pts
• Hammerers/Ironbreakers X 20 with Strollaz and Sanctuary for 360 pts

So, not too small blocks for this elite troops me thinks. I guess most people would prefer 2 Hammerers unit for this size. But 20 Ironbreakers are not a bad option. You still have like 11 pts for some small tweaks.

 

Other path, and the one that I think is best, is to use the available points in special to get one nice block of hammerers and a cannon. With 3 gyros we got big template shooting covered, and I will not repeat here all the amazing things we know about cannons. Yes, it will be left behind, that’s where the non vanguarding gyro will help to keep it alive to get his magik done. With this option, we can field:

• Dwarf Cannon, Forging, Burning at 150 pts.

• Hammerers/Ironbreakers X 32 with Strollaz and Sanctuary for 528 pts

This allows us to bring to the table the two “heavy hitting” units to dish out some pain.

 

And that’s it! A fully functional, (almost) fully  vanguarding army!

 

Yet, I think this list is extremely light on magic defense, even for a vanguarding unit. So I would suggest for a final modification: reduce the number of Hammerers, and get a second Runesmith that brings another spellbreaker, plus another AP effect for an unit. With no Valaya, I think this is minimum magic defense at this games point.

 

Final draft of the Vanguarding army is (still 9 pts left to spend!)

 

BSB Thane: Shield, MR Grungni, Strollaz, Ancestors (to help with Warriors with shields staying power): 184 pts.

Runesmith General: Greatweapon, Spellbreaking, Stone, Wardingx2:  131 pts.              

Runesmith: Shield, Spellbreaking X2, Stone: 113 pts.

Total Characters: 428 pts, 17,12%

 

Warriors X30, Full Command, Shields: 300 pts.

Longbeards X20, Full Command, Shields: 325 pts.

Core troops: 625 pts, 25%

 

Hammerers X22, Full Command, Strollaz, Sanctuary: 388 pts.

Cannon, Forging, Burning: 150 pts.

Gyrocopter, Vanguarding: 100 pts.

Gyrocopter, Vanguarding: 100 pts.

Gyrocopter, 80 pts.

Special troops: 818 pts. 32,72%

 

Rangers X20, Full Command: 310 pts.

Rangers X20, Full Command: 310 pts.

Rare Troops 620 pts. 24,8%

 

That’s it folks… 5 battle ready scouting/vanguarding blocks, 3 gyros and a cannon. What do you think? I know you could craft a very different list using Ungrim with strollaz slayers, but that is for another thread.

 

How do you like the list? What would you change? Would you take an Organ Gun instead of second Runesmith? Get the points from somewhere else? Irondrakes with strollaz+sanctuary, giving Courage to Hammerers and running just 2x5 naked rangers?

 

Thanks for your input, either on list tweaking, deployment and tactics tips, advice against certain enemies, etc.

 

Cheers!

 

Dorack

[sgreg308]

Having played a couple games with a nearly identical list I have found the single gyro roaming the backfield to be inadequate rear field protection. A DE army ran "I Swear too much" tons of chaff around my back and if it weren't for hatred and lucky lucky rolls he might have crushed me. The one gyro simply couldn't hold off all the rear flanks the were busting me up in CC. So, my remedy which I found to be sufficient and ultra awesome was to replace the block of shield wars with GW Quarrellers to watch the back field. This gave me the ability to keep the non vanguard gyro in back with excellent fire support from a fairly tough quarrellers unit to handle quick moving chaff type armies or move the non vanguard gyro up with to the line and fly over enemy blacks for dive bomb and rear flank charges along with the other 2 gyros if there wasn't arty. Once the combat started I began marching my quarrellers toward the most unfavorable combat to prepare support, get a flank if lucky but unlikely or to receive an overrun. You can also give them shields, both options are suitable.

I also like to do a hammerers unit with strollaz and slowness and only 1 20 man ranger unit then an Ironbreaker block with stoicism which is where I put my BSB. Deployment of the Ironbreakers is crucial because it throws my enemy me off balance when done right. They typically try to avoid the breakers altogether and it can wind up splitting their lines in a manner they did not wish to. The obvious thing for them then is to charge the hammies or long beards and hammies with slowness narrows their abilities quite a bit so the only real decent charge option would be the longbeards but then I support them with rangers so you risk a str 6 flank charge from them as well as an overrun into quarreller fire or quarrellers them selves depending on the layout. Currently I'm toying with the viability of a tank lord in this scenario which cost me a second tunesmith a gyro, and some bodies to fit in but we'll see if it doesn't perform exceedingly well or not. I suppose putting him in with longbeards would make pretty much every unit suck to charge. I almost forgot to mention, one of the must crucial components to the success of this list type is the gyros getting behind their lines. Forget steam templates, you need them for rear flanks more than anything. Templates are just a bonus, but that rear flank charge gave me combat res pops on four superior units that otherwise would have beat me down so far. If your opponent is able to match each unit with a decent one of their own then the gyro become critical in tilting those combats because atleast one of them will likely be an unfavorable match up.

Edited by sgreg308, 19 March 2014 - 08:02 AM.

[Gyro Fleet Commander]

First off a hello, I’m new here.

 

I'm also relatively new to Dwarfs but this style and the great models are what got me into them in the first place. I have only been playing a few 500 point games as I build my force, however full vanguard is what I would like to end up with and would like to take to tournaments. The one thing that has made me rethink though is the thought of opponents putting a scouting unit in front of my army if he gets to place them first. That one thing could prevent the army from competing. Therefore I have been looking to make sure the list can still work even if it does not vanguard. Have you guys done the same or do you think your list only works with vanguard?

 

The one unit I thought could help out here that you have not included was Iron Drakes. If you put these in the centre and had your other units on one flank moving round, it would help thin down the faster moving armies as they move round. Interested to hear your thoughts on them and why they were not in the army.

[Second Son of Grungni]

If you are going for a totally fluffy list that can move quickly and force some tough decisions, why not include a larger unit of Miners rather than the Hammerers?  You can field more of them, have potential rear charges since your other units will be in their face, and save points on the Strollas rune. Sure, they may not be quite as good as Hammerers, but they are still good, and fit the theme quite nicely.

[sgreg308]

I've made an iron drakes strollaz list. Unfortunately with the way things went I wound up only giving them strollaz. I wanted to bait them out there be charged, gave them 2x slowness and BSB with strollaz so when they get charged it fails and they can load the enemy eventually the enemy will get to them and then the rest of my line will be there to support them.

The reason I don't use miners is their lack of reliability and their inability to be in the action when I want them to be.

[saldiven]

I'm working on a fluffy list that uses one larger Bugman-buffed Ranger unit and a small Ranger unit in Rare (the second there to protect Vanguard alleys) as the core of the army's fluff.  Dunno how competitive it'll be, but looking forward to first turn WS4, short range Crossbows and then some WS4 S5 stand-and-shoot Throwing Axes again.

[Ragnavald Frostpeak]

Why bother to vanguard the gyros when they move so fast already? Seems like a waste of points.

[pa11ad1n]

A vanguard gyro can be over your enemies lines in the first turn with a march move (it won't be able to shoot but it can drop bombs) and can be in range with the steam gun if it makes a normal move.  A non vanguarding gyro's march will be just short of enemy lines (so no bombing run) if you go first.  A normal move leaves you out of range for the steam gun.

 

They can also block enemy vanguard moves that occur after theirs.

Edited by pa11ad1n, 19 March 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[Ragnavald Frostpeak]

Hm, I suppose so. Still seems like a lot of points to spend for an extra bombing run and a bit more blocking flexibility. Maybe I have not faced enough people who dish out those sorts of headaches.

[sgreg308]

Vanguarding them makes it possible to get them behind enemy lines much easier and expediently which is as I said before crucial to vanguard list success.

[pa11ad1n]

Hm, I suppose so. Still seems like a lot of points to spend for an extra bombing run and a bit more blocking flexibility. Maybe I have not faced enough people who dish out those sorts of headaches.

 

It isn't actually an extra dive bomb (to use the actual rule's name) as you can only do it once per game anyway.  Getting it done early is a good thing though as gyros are quite easy to kill.

[Ragnavald Frostpeak]

Going back to the OP would you say that the only single cannon might make this list vulnerable to big bad heroes or monsters?

[Logan]

quick question - I'm away from rule book, does the gyro steamgun fire into combat like a breathweapon?

[sgreg308]

It does not logan.

[Logan]

thought not. tis a shame XD

 

[saldiven]

thought not. tis a shame XD

 

But you can use it in every shooting phase of the game, rather than just once at any point in the game.

[Kevril Stonescream]

I am going to try a smaller variant on this tonight vs Lizardmen and will hopefully get a report up this week. Only playing 1500pt so had to drop a bit to get it to fit.

Running, 2x Runesmiths with spellbreakers, 2 x 19 longbeards and 1 x 20 hammeres all with Strollarz (and bits to satisfy rule of pride) 2 gyrocopters and and 2 5 man rangers for scout to keep my vanguard lanes free. 

 

Do feel a bit vulnerable with no artillery but we shall see how it goes!

[Beardling653]

Ive been running an infantry with a lord (for magical attacks) list backed up with gyros, how do you deal with etherals?

[Thrundorin]

Forging on the cannon also makes it magical, but there isnt much there to do that.