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#1 guardian angel

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:20 AM

I'm new to dwarfs and am in the process of building up my first army with them. At the moment my army includes a unit of 15 irondrakes with musician. The purpose of this unit is to be a mobile flank guard.... but then I got thinking!

Rangers with shields cost the same but have even greater flexibility than Irondrakes due to having crossbows, throwing axes and great weapons! Add in scout they seem on paper a very flexible unit.

 

I'm gonna try out both and see what I prefer, but I guess what I'm asking is: what are peoples opinions on rangers in the new dwarf book and their potential uses?



#2 Notts

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:21 PM

rangers and iron drakes have totally different battlefield roles really.



#3 pa11ad1n

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:14 PM

I don't see rangers being useful for anything beyond vanguard blocking.  If they had been special instead of rare, then maybe that would have been different.

 

You pay for a lot of equipment, including a 30 inch range... which is wasted on them.  On top of that having a move or fire weapon is far from optimal on a scouting unit.  They only have normal dwarf warrior stats so you would need a reasonably large unit of them to be combat effective, particularly if they are unsupported.  But being in rare... you simply don't have the points to spend on them.  They are competing for space with organ guns, flame cannons, iron drakes and gyro bombers.

 

One view is that all of the equipment they have makes them flexible... the other is that they are over equipped.  If they had the option of coming without the crossbow they would have been a solid choice.

 

They are good value per model.  Essentially being quaralers with great weapons that get scouting and throwing axes for free.  

 

1 or 2 units of 5 man rangers blocking enemy vanguard work in gun line and combat armies.  In combat armies you can then move your own vanguard units up and the rangers become part of a forward line (so increasing the unit to 10 might be a worth while.)  Beyond that I wouldn't expect anything from them beyond being a distraction. Even with scouting they are too slow for war machine hunting or normal Chaf duties (I think gyro coptors are far superior as chaf with miners and cannons being my anti war machine choices)

 

Iron drakes are short ranged but have quick to fire with str 5 armour piercing weapons (not to mention flaming for dealing with regeneration and flammable targets).  They have elite stat and a ward save (rangers can't use shield in melee due to having great axes).  Rangers can't even change facing if they want to shoot with crossbows (ignore the throwing axes... 6 inch range suffering from long range penalties make them remarkably bad.) That is an issue when setting up 12 inches from enemy lines.



#4 Murphey

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 02:15 PM

The free throwing axes and scouting at the same cost as XQs with GW makes them VERY versatile. They are able to be set up in a scouting position which helps with deployment. We all know how effective that can be with the old ambush lists.

Now, once in place, they have 30" weapons that can almost always find a target for the first few turns.

Anything that dodges their front arc up close gets a hail of S5 throwing axes after a swift reform.

Anything charging from far away faces S&S with dwarf crafted crossbows. If they are too close, we can always throw axes.

Once something is in combat, then they are facing S5 great axes.

Irondrakes have a completely different role than rangers. I wouldn't call rangers useless at all!

#5 Dourin

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 03:00 PM

Rangers have come a long way though. At least with them being rare now, you can field more of them.

 

Yes, they are expensive but as Murphey pointed out they have a lot of equipment. The crossbows, the throwing axes and the great weapons are all excellent things and they have their uses.

 

Don't forget that you're not obligated to just drop them down on the board and leave them there to die. Your scouting deployment will force his scouts and his vanguards to avoid you. In addition to, you can look at them as a vanguard without the vanguard rune. Plop them down where you want them and move up with your real vanguarding units. Now you have up to 5 (2 rangers and 3 vanguarding units) in his face before turn 1.

 

I fielded 2 units of 15 yesterday and they did stellar. One slowed down two horde blocks that feared flank/countercharges, the other one charged a unit of shades in a building, took it over and starting shooting all across the board.

 

They do need to be supported by other troops however, since they're still only expensive warriors when it comes to their armour saves, but don't underestimate what a group of 15 rangers can do on the charge. That's 10-11 attacks hitting on str 6. This is painful to almost anything.



#6 Dark Dwarves

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 03:22 PM

Rangers have come a long way though. At least with them being rare now, you can field more of them.

 

Yes, they are expensive but as Murphey pointed out they have a lot of equipment. The crossbows, the throwing axes and the great weapons are all excellent things and they have their uses.

 

Don't forget that you're not obligated to just drop them down on the board and leave them there to die. Your scouting deployment will force his scouts and his vanguards to avoid you. In addition to, you can look at them as a vanguard without the vanguard rune. Plop them down where you want them and move up with your real vanguarding units. Now you have up to 5 (2 rangers and 3 vanguarding units) in his face before turn 1.

 

I fielded 2 units of 15 yesterday and they did stellar. One slowed down two horde blocks that feared flank/countercharges, the other one charged a unit of shades in a building, took it over and starting shooting all across the board.

 

They do need to be supported by other troops however, since they're still only expensive warriors when it comes to their armour saves, but don't underestimate what a group of 15 rangers can do on the charge. That's 10-11 attacks hitting on str 6. This is painful to almost anything.

 

I have to agree with Dourin on all counts.  Don't right off Rangers just yet.  See what your playstle and points will allow.  If you need the Irondrakes for your list to work then skip on the Rangers, but don't just dismiss them.

 

The Dark Dwarves



#7 pa11ad1n

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:06 PM

Those 2 units are your entire rare selection at 2000 points, assuming they have full command.  Like I said before, if they were special I'd have no issue.  How exactly did one unit slow down 2 hordes?  those hordes couldn't have been next to each other if they were both being threatened by the same unit the width of the first horde would put you outside of anything but a lucky charge range.  Why didn't he have units protecting the flanks of his hordes?

 

Don't get me wrong... I love rangers.  I wanted to do a full on ambush list with longbeard rangers... but they removed the option.  I want rangers to be a valid, reliable and not circumstantial option.  I'm just not seeing it.

 

I get good use out of quarrelers (which are the same value) but they are worth the points precisely because they set up nearly 30" from the enemy! Scouting is actually detrimental to the crossbow (which is, apparently, valued at 4 points... which is a lot to pay if you aren't getting the full value out of it).  I expect better from a rare choice.

 

do field rangers.  I don't think they are a good choice for a main line combat unit (because the unit size is too limited for their basic stat line because they are a rare choice).  I don't think they are a good choice for a ranged unit (because they are too close to the enemy).  I think other rare options offer better value in terms of killing power.

 

The throwing axes are only str 4, not str 5, unless you have Bugman's rangers.  hitting on 5s usually.  Not seeing them making a massive difference.  If they are being charged and can't use the crossbows they can indeed use the axes.  Hitting on 6s.  yay.

 

Sure, they can clear enemy scouts and chaf if you have units of 10+ of them.  They can support a strollaz list if you have units of 10+ of them.  I'm simply not convinced that there are not better places to spend your rare points.  Maybe a strollaz list doesn't need the fire support offered by the other rare choices.

 

 



#8 Duregar Stormbreaker

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:19 PM

The fact that rangers come equipped with everything doesnt mean they are good at everything. You dont have to use the xbows. Rangers are there to give you an alternative deployment option and die on round 2 trying to get to a war machine. Thats why they exist. This means the enemy artillery obliterates them and not your bricks and your enemy's shooters spend 2 turns to rearrange themselves again not blasting your bricks. If you want to use them as a block i have bad news for you. There a far better options out there. So take advantage of the only unique thing rangers bring and you re done.



#9 Ragnavald Frostpeak

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 09:49 PM

But do you guys consider the Bugman ranger option viable or worth it? Careful... Bugman might be watching... :)

#10 pa11ad1n

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:25 PM

17 points a model?  The +3 points a model is actually not bad for what you get (I wish longbeards were only 3 points more than normal warriors)... but the starting point is too much.  I don't see rangers as a viable 'brick' and they would need to be to make the bugman's upgrade worth it.

 

Edit:  They are one of my favorite regiments in the game and I would dearly love to be proven wrong.


Edited by pa11ad1n, 14 March 2014 - 10:26 PM.


#11 Lomack

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 06:05 PM

Scouting is not detrimental to crossbows in my opinion.
It's gets you in range for good short range shooting if you have first turn and can't charge.
Big block definitely synergies with strollaz lists.
Small blocks synergies with those aggressive and defensive list (as roadblock for the latter
But yeah some good arguments against them here.

There IS on undoubted place for them though..and that's when your painted model collection includes stiff that will pass as them and not the alternatives!!! Hehe

Edited by Lomack, 15 March 2014 - 06:09 PM.


#12 pa11ad1n

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 08:17 PM

All of my cloaked bodies were set aside for rangers (48 of them).  Not sure what to do with them all now... :s



#13 St Hasselhoff

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 10:40 PM

The optimal place for Rangers is to scout into a building, this will give them 360 degree fire arc and they are much harder to hide from.  All the equipment they have is perfect for repelling building attackers.  So if your terrain set up is building heavy Rangers are pretty decent.

 

As to war machine guards, they don't even compare to Irondrakes.  The key for the Irondrakes is not being able to hide from them.  A quick reform and they can still shoot so no one can get outside of their shooting arc like they can with quarrellers and rangers (or thunderers for that matter).    



#14 Murphey

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 03:17 AM

Rangers have throwing axes so they are just as dangerous as Drakes with the swift reform.



#15 pa11ad1n

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 03:30 AM

In what way is a 6" range, str 4 weapon as dangerous as an 18" str 5, armour piercing, flaming weapon?



#16 Odin Morgrimmsson

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:16 PM

I'm experimenting with two units of somewhere between 10-20 in mixed list, along with two smallish units of Miners and three cannon. The plan is to deploy one unit on each flank. Their role with be as follows:

 

1. Block advance of enemy flanking units.
2. Funnel bulk of enemy through the centre of the table. Giving a packed centreground for the cannons to wreak havoc.
3. Shoot down fast moving skirmishers, flankers and flyers before they hit the main lines.
4. March block those units moving past them into the centre
5. Absorb the first charge, and hold combat for one round.  
 
The Miners can then either perform their usual warmachine wrecking havoc, or can be deployed to support the Rangers: either flanking an enemy the Rangers have held, or deploying behind the Rangers for the enemy to overrunn into as a second speedbump.
 
What I'm struggling with at the moment is the optimum size for the Rangers. Small units are obviously cheaper, but I want the units to ideally be able to hold a charge from most likely flanking units. Is 15-16 enough? On the other hand 2x20 does give you 40 crossbowbolts at short-range, plus two decent sized combat blocks. But it's a lot of points.
 


#17 Scabby

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:14 PM

In what way is a 6" range, str 4 weapon as dangerous as an 18" str 5, armour piercing, flaming weapon?

Pa11ad1n I think eventually that you too will be won over by the awesomeness of rangers ;)



#18 pa11ad1n

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:05 PM

I've already used them.  And they have done what I needed of them.  I remain to be convinced that are "awesome".  



#19 Swordthain

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:32 AM

Anyone know where the points for Bugman's upgrade are allocated? I assumed they were Rare points, but one of the guys at my store mentioned they're Hero points... Looking at it again, I guess it isn't very clear which is correct...

Edited by Swordthain, 20 March 2014 - 05:33 AM.


#20 Murphey

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:37 AM

Bugman comes from the hero pool, but his ranger upgrade is upgrading a unit of rangers. The rangers are rare points and any upgrade on them would be rare points.

Edited by Murphey, 20 March 2014 - 05:37 AM.






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