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Struggling With Character Rune Setups


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#1 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:59 PM

Right, the new runic system. The combo system actually works to restrict options significantly now with the stacking effect modifiers. While understanding the reason (to prevent things like multiple spellbreakers on one guy for example) it works to make things way harder for customization. Additionally, the schizophrenic points scheme (some things costing more than BRB items, others cheaper, others the same) does not help.

 

I think Killy Characters may be back. The survivability of a Shieldbearer Lord is actually pretty good now as he'll get to attack back against most enemies in CC due to a ton of wounds. If you are trying to play a more aggressive list, tooling up a thane to handle things cannon would normally go after is an option.

 

Weapon Runes:

Weapon runes got a straight-up nerf with the new book. The problems with the rune of cleaving and fury are the main ones. It's impossible to get extra strength without committing nearly 40 points, two of three slots, and ending up with one of the benefits (AP) being a bit redundant with Runesmiths.

 

We're pretty much restricted to two things, GW or Rune of Might, if we want extra strength. This is actually pretty ugly as we have a significant power gap for T3 and T4 well armored enemies.

 

Rune of fury is incredible cost ineffective at level 2 and 3. I simple am not going to use it when 2x Striking or just Snorri is probably a better value.

 

So, mostly ignoring Great Weapons for this discussion (obviously), here's what I am coming up:

 

Monster/Lord Bashing.

Requirements: High Strength, Multiple Wounds.

Good to Have: Good armor pen.

 

1) Might x2. This is the obvious mainstay. This is the only good way to get strength up on a magic weapon and do multiple wounds. In fact, other than Smiting (which is going to be limited to Lords only) and 3xRune of Fire (which is so idiotically expensive except for maybe when fighting Throgg lists or Ogres we'll ignore it).

 

Pairs best with:

  • Snorri for hitting on a 2+.
  • Swiftness for ASF
  • Burning for Flaming Attacks

Problems:

  • Only the 3rd can be fit on a Hero. Leaves 55 for Lords which is nice.
  • The first two limit a Lord to only 40 points of defenses, prohibiting a 4+ Ward or the 'Tasty' 2 x Iron, which is bad. What protection do you give a Thane or Lord with one of these weapons?

2) Smiting Builds. This is really only going to be viable on a Lord. D6 wounds is powerful, but if you can't reliably hit and wound at least 1-2 times, it's not going to be worth it. Also a Master rune, preventing Swiftness and Snorri combos which is a big drawback. I don't believe this rune is very feasible without Might as while you can chop up T3 and T4 characters you'll be at a big disadvantage against T5 and T6 things, which is the point of this type of build. If you can't kill an Orc Warboss, what good a combat character are you?

 

Pairs best with:

  • Might+Fire. Leaves 30 for defenses.
  • Might+Striking: Leaves 30 for defenses.
  • Might+Fury: Leaves 15 for defenses
  • Cleaving x2: Leaves 30 for defenses. S5 D6 wounds, -3 AS isn't terrible I think.

Budget Combat

Requirements: Keep to under 75 points so Thanes can use it and Lords get plenty of points for Defense. Must provide tangible benefits over 'just take a GW'.

Good to have: Killing power vs troops.

 

1) MR Snorri. Only gonna get one weapon for this. The lack of easy +1 Strength really hurt all these combos. Better off with a real weapon above.

 

Pairs best with:

  • Might+Fire. 60 points, cheap monster and T5 character killing. At least your hitting everything else on a 2+, if at only S4.
  • Fury+Cleaving: 60 points. You'll get 4-5 hits at S4 every turn at least. Is it worth the premium over a GW?
  • Cleaving x2: 60 points. S5, -3 AS that hits on a 2+. Again need to compare to a GW here.

2) MR Swiftness. We'd be looking at something probably for a Dragon Slayer here or an Elf killer.

  • Might+Fire: 60 points. Hit hard and early. Works well with Dragon Slayer skill. Maybe swap fire for Speed.
  • Striking x2: 60 points. All your attacks should hit first. At S4. Might be good for killing elf infantry with a runesmith?

To be blunt, I'm not liking either of these choices at all. I'm left with the fact that a non-Might weapon is pretty much going to be useless outside of Slayer characters and specific builds.

 

 

Defensive Builds

Requirements: Wide range of builds to fit various point levels. Rune of Preservation makes me want to cut myself..

 

Let's work up from the cheapest solutions to the best. I'm ignoring the simple "Rune of Stone and a Shield, and call it a day" defensive builds. Also going to assume any Lord is already on Shieldbearers. Really, there is no reason not to. Don't care if you don't like the model, it's that awesome an item and you're gonna need it in these days of "No Rune of Resistance."

 

Seriously. Couldn't they have made it a master Rune? Really? REALLY?

 

The less I say about Impact the better. Go ahead and toss one on if you got 10 points to play with and have a head injury.

 

1) 30 Points or Less

  • MR Gromril. 5 points more expensive these days. Still a good standby. Slap a GW on it.
  • Iron+Stone. Costs a rune of spellbreaking, adds +1 Wound and +1 AS. Good deal.

2) 40 Points or Less

  • Fortitude+Stone. I have trouble with this one as the 2xRune of Iron is more cost effective, but if you only have 40 points left...

3) 50 Points or Less

  • Iron x2+Stone. Now we're talking. +1 Wound, +1 T and +1 AS. Excellent value.
  • MR Gromril+Iron. +1 AS and +1 wound. The new MR Gromril+Resistance?
  • Fortitude x2. Get a ward save with that +1 T. Not an awful value. No room for stone however.

4) 60 Points or Less

  • Same as above except add Stone to Fortitude x2.

5) 75 Points or More

 

Thane Specific:

  • Gromril+Iron x2. Powerful for a thane.
  • Gromril+Warding x3. 1+/4++
  • Fortitude x2+Iron. Better than Iron x3. Both add +1W and +1T, but the 5++ is a ward, not a Regen save and is 5 points cheaper!

King Specific:

  • Fortitude+Iron x2. 80 points. Add Warding x3 for the full points allotment on your lord. The Kingmaker. 6 wounds, T7, possible 4++.
  • Iron 2x+Stone+Warding x3. Almost 100 points so a bit cheaper than the full version above. Trade +1T for the final +1 AS on a Lord.

----

 

CONCLUSION

  • So I'm stumped on weapon runes. For the most part if you want any combat runes it's better to take a GW or take a Lord.
  • A Lord can be tooled up to be a solid combat character with one of the Might builds.
  • Dragon slayers can have good offensive builds.
  • Thanes are hurt by the changes to Rune of Cleaving to the point I don't think it's worth tooling them up. Take the Ring of Thori instead.
  • The 50 point armor builds are a great value for a thane.

 


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 21 February 2014 - 08:07 PM.


#2 Murphey

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:04 PM

If you view the weapon runes through the prism of S5 on the charge, they become a little more reasonable. I think this is how they were balanced.

#3 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:23 PM

Maybe I'm still stuck in the old book mindset, but I don't trust counting on that bonus and don't take it into account when list building. Even with gyros, you'll need to invest in the Rune of Slowness to get the charge...and we're still M3. It's far from a reliable benefit. It also only works the first turn.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you in that is how they are balanced (it's also why our runes that help hitting are so affordable...due to possible hatred) it's just annoying that they balance it on something that you may or may not get.

 

Maybe it's just an old book hangover and it'll matter more than I am expecting.


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 21 February 2014 - 08:24 PM.


#4 Lynn

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:24 PM

Lord 2 Ro Speed 1 MRo Swiftness and troll the elves :D I6 ASF biatch.

Ok enough jokes (yes i know that doesn't work.)

 

We have hatred allot. Re-Rolls to hit on champ vs champ is a good thing and comes on a 3+. Do not underestimate cleaving 3.

But in my eyes we tank and de-buff. Our named chars do the mopping up together with our units.

 

ASF is good for a lord that you know can kill in his first round of combat. Challenges weaker targets. A dead target cannot strike back unless its a slayer!

 

A fun thing I'm designing:

Might(2) 60pnts Rune of impact. + defence runes (or-1hit weapon rune)

Charge str is granted once the charge is successful (so in movement) and lasts till start of enemy turn. Combat impact hit gets the bonus.

Might checks T of all targets in close combat with the wielder and grants the wielder bonus str. This is not the same as Str when using the weapon so is active even without swinging it (See Faq fencer blades if you need proof). Since this happens the moment the charge succeeded it helps the impact hits too.

Charge vs T4 = Str 5 impact 1

Charge vs T5+ = Str 10 impact 1 D3 wounds

Look out sir is not allowed against impact hits.

Its a little cheeky but funny as hell also don't forget it randomizes the 1 hit between the 2/3 units you are in base contact with. Putting him in a 6 frontal unit on the corner makes him impact the enemy corner wooot woot chariots cant do this!

 

Edit: this is funny but do be mindful some opponents wont like it. I try to make sure I do not bring something that causes hate. Especially considering all the possible loop holes with our gimmicky items **Caugh grudge rune read it caugh**


Edited by Lynn, 21 February 2014 - 08:28 PM.


#5 Aarresaari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:35 PM

If you view the weapon runes through the prism of S5 on the charge, they become a little more reasonable. I think this is how they were balanced.

That's true. But still it makes it hard to build a balanced character. Even with +1str on charge, and only on charge, you still have to spend a lot of time to contemplate on the possible match-ups you'll be facing. It's pretty hard to build anything that can face multiple types of opponents while living on a prayer to get that +1str on charge (and use it to actually achieve something that matters). I don't say it's impossible, but pretty hard. 



#6 dg1

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:37 PM

Good discussion.  I had some similar analyses.  It feels like they are kind of naturally steering to take obvious combinations of runes. 

 

The inability to build up S on a runic weapon is noticeable.  I would have liked to have seen the +1S, +2 and +3 S magic weapon rune options like in the BRB.  Instead, one has AP + 1S with two runes of cleaving where AP may be redundant in some units and one might end up with just taking a great weapon and striking last. 

 

Notice also, that Fortitude x2+Iron is cheaper than either Two runes of warding and Iron plus Fortitude or two runes of warding plus two runes of iron for the same +1T, +1W and 5+ ward because of the increased cost of 2 runes of warding and the first rune of fortitude while the second rune of fortitude is really cheap.

 

Sometimes the math, especially on T5 models, is such that adding +1T is better than a 5+ ward save and similarly +1 wound is equivalent to a 5+ ward save in combat and for some hits (except with MR1 or MR2 and magic spell damage), as is rune of parrying which is like putting a Mark of Nurgle on a character.

 

The talismanic runes seem kind of thin.  Compared to the BRB, one might have expected a one time re-roll of AS and re-roll of armour save talisman, although rune of luck is broader and covers the first.  Also, you do not have that one time 4+ ward save item or the MR(1) to MR3 items in the BRB talimen.     

 

 

I really think you will see more use of the talismanic and armour runes and a great weapon in many battles, especially with AP on runesmitths.  Min characters means making them more resilient, instead of killy.   



#7 Aarresaari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:59 PM

I think that the main problem with weapon runes is that if you take them, you basically need to take the whole lot to improve your str4 or to somehow manage with it. It means that you really have to concentrate points on them, which in turn makes it harder to obtain a good defence. And if you start by building up your def first, you'll notice that you can't fit any combos in your weapon that would do anything better than a great weapon, which takes no points from your allowance and leaves you with even more points on defence. So if you take a runic weapon, it has to be a good and expensive one and while having a good offence, will leave you badly protected.



#8 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:24 PM

So if you take a runic weapon it has to be a good and expensive one, and while having a good offense will leave you badly protected.

 

That's the exact struggle I have right now with the current system.



#9 Aarresaari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:43 PM

 

So if you take a runic weapon it has to be a good and expensive one, and while having a good offense will leave you badly protected.

 

That's the exact struggle I have right now with the current system.

 

And that's why we made this house rule in our gaming party that if you have bought same additional equipment for your character, you can decide which weapon you want to use in every combat, even if some of them are magical or anyway special. That's both realistic and believable. And by that rule you can use your magical weapon for some special match-ups and still have that good o' great axe in reserve for them tough guys. And we think any killy lord in every army benefits from this.



#10 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:52 AM

And that's why we made this house rule in our gaming party that if you have bought same additional equipment for your character, you can decide which weapon you want to use in every combat, even if some of them are magical or anyway special. That's both realistic and believable. And by that rule you can use your magical weapon for some special match-ups and still have that good o' great axe in reserve for them tough guys. And we think any killy lord in every army benefits from this.

 

 

 

 

That is an excellent house rule! It makes total sense.

Here are two examples:

The GW Method:

"Hi, I am a Dwarf Lord, I have an axe designed to kill Dragons. Oh Look here comes an Elf! I shall use my Dragon killing Axe."

"But sir, it will be useless against his plated armour! Use your Great Axe!"

"Nonesense! I cannot use my Great Axe for I have been equipped with my Dragon Killing Axe and shall use no other weapon even if it costs me my life and cause my warriors to flee!"

Vs

The Aarresaari Gaming Party Method:

"Hi, I am a Dwarf Lord, I have an axe designed to kill Dragons. Oh Look here comes an Elf! Hand me my Great Axe so I can bury it deep in his weak chest!"

"Good call sir, your Dragon Axe would be useless against him anyway!"

"Yes! What sort of beardling would I be if I used the wrong weapon!"
 

Sometimes the math, especially on T5 models, is such that adding +1T is better than a 5+ ward save and similarly +1 wound is equivalent to a 5+ ward save in combat and for some hits (except with MR1 or MR2 and magic spell damage), as is rune of parrying which is like putting a Mark of Nurgle on a character.

Do you have math for this? I agree with you, I would just like to see it if you have it.



#11 pointlessdwarf

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:48 AM

I did a quick calc on my phone and the results for toughness vs ward are as follows. These are the fractional chance of each hit wounding you

T5 1+ 4++
S4 -1/36
S5 - 1/12
S6 - 1/6

T6 1+ 4++
S4 - 1/72
S5 - 1/18
S6 - 1/8

T7 1+ 4++
S4 - 1/72
S5 - 1/36
S6 - 1/12

T7 1+ 5++
S4 - 1/54
S5 - 1/27
S6 - 1/9

#12 Aarresaari

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:29 AM

 

And that's why we made this house rule in our gaming party that if you have bought same additional equipment for your character, you can decide which weapon you want to use in every combat, even if some of them are magical or anyway special. That's both realistic and believable. And by that rule you can use your magical weapon for some special match-ups and still have that good o' great axe in reserve for them tough guys. And we think any killy lord in every army benefits from this.

 

 

 

 

That is an excellent house rule! It makes total sense.

Here are two examples:

The GW Method:

"Hi, I am a Dwarf Lord, I have an axe designed to kill Dragons. Oh Look here comes an Elf! I shall use my Dragon killing Axe."

"But sir, it will be useless against his plated armour! Use your Great Axe!"

"Nonesense! I cannot use my Great Axe for I have been equipped with my Dragon Killing Axe and shall use no other weapon even if it costs me my life and cause my warriors to flee!"

Vs

The Aarresaari Gaming Party Method:

"Hi, I am a Dwarf Lord, I have an axe designed to kill Dragons. Oh Look here comes an Elf! Hand me my Great Axe so I can bury it deep in his weak chest!"

"Good call sir, your Dragon Axe would be useless against him anyway!"

"Yes! What sort of beardling would I be if I used the wrong weapon!"
 

 

lol, that's a great way to express it! :D
 



#13 Stymie Jackson

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:34 PM

Going to look deeper into two 'cheap' defensive builds. The idea is to stay close to 50 points, leaving plenty of points for a Lord, or keeping a Thane relatively cheap (think BSB for less than 150 points). In other words, what's to replace the MRGromril/Resistance Thane?

 

There's really limited choices available. Ignoring preservations for only specific matchups (if you're playing say Tomb Kings, you're going to want Preservation on your 6 wound Lord), Impact as just for the Lolz, and Adamant as not cost-effective, we have:

  • Master Rune of Gromril/Rune of Stone: Improve AS
  • Runes of Fortitude
  • Runes of Iron
  • Runes of Warding (In the Talisman slot)

So combinations of the above three are all we really effectively have in the armor slot. I'm not a big fan of expensive ward saves on Hero classes...Ward saves become more valuable to more wounds you have (so become fabulous on a king). That said, it's easy to get an extra wound on a Thane now.

 

Few extra points:

  • A single fortitude is not cost effective. 2xFortitude is amazingly cost effective. 3xFortitude is a bit lackluster.
  • A single iron is great. 2xIron is amazing cost effective. 3xIron is inferior to other combinations.
  • I'm taking for granted a Great Weapon is taken.

The Table:

For a given strength hit, what is the chance to get a wound past all saves, and how many hits to kill a thane:

 

1) Master Rune of Gromril with Rune of Iron. 1+ AS T5 W3

 

S4: 5.55%, ~54 hits

S5: 11.1%, ~27 hits

S6: 33.3%, ~9 hits

S7: 55.5%, ~6 hits

 

2) 2xRune of Iron with Rune of Stone. 3+ AS T6 W3

 

S4: 8.3%, ~37 hits

S5: 22.2%, ~14 hits

S6: 41.6%, ~8 hits

S7: 66.6%, ~5 hits

 

3) 2xRune of Fortitude with Rune of Stone. 3+ AS T6 W2 5++

 

S4: 5.55%, ~37 hits

S5: 14.8%, ~21 hits

S6: 27.7%, ~9 hits

S7: 44.4%, ~7 hits

 

NOTE: PLEASE CHECK MY MATH!

 

CONCLUSION:

Barring a math mistake, Master Rune of Gromril+Rune of Iron is the best combination, but 2x Fortitude+Stone actually overtakes at S7+...but 2x Fortitude+Stone is 5 points more expensive than the other two.

2xIron+Stone is much worse than I expected.

 

Dropping the GW for a shield can change these numbers around. Spending 70-75 points on D can also change things. Just FYI, these numbers are not the end-all be-all. I'll need to also run the 70-75 points combinations later on a Thane.


Edited by Stymie Jackson, 22 February 2014 - 09:35 PM.


#14 kgkid

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:50 PM

There's one more to assert:

 

MAoBB+Shield, but you're stuck with T5 W2... I tried this, but poison and S5 ruined my day.

 

I really miss my rerolled armor.

 



#15 dg1

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:32 AM

I would note that one cannot have MR Grungni and another rune because a BSB with a runic banner cannot take any other runes. 



#16 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:45 AM

I would note that one cannot have MR Grungni and another rune because a BSB with a runic banner cannot take any other runes. 

 
I realize that asking for clarification is a bit off topic, but what? Are you serious? Did I miss that in the reading because I am so used to what we could do last edition?

This cannot be correct....

__________

@Stymie: Thanks for this thread. It is a great help.

Things however change when we are talking about Lords considering that they can get 1+ AS without taking MR of Gromril. So could you rune math-hammer for a Lord rune-ing out?



#17 dg1

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:57 AM

Read theBSB  Box on page 89 of the new Dwarf army book.  It says that a Thane BSB can take a runic banner but if a Thane BSB takes a runic banner it cannot have any other runic items. Just to clarify, the runic banner can have two or three runes on it with only one being a MR.  Basically, the MR Grungni can only be taken by the BSB (BSB only) and gives it a 4+ ward save, so the new book basically forces it on you or else you do not put a runic banner on the BSB and take some other runes. 


Edited by dg1, 24 February 2014 - 03:01 AM.


#18 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:15 AM

 

Read theBSB  Box on page 89 of the new Dwarf army book.  It says that a Thane BSB can take a runic banner but if a Thane BSB takes a runic banner it cannot have any other runic items. Just to clarify, the runic banner can have two or three runes on it with only one being a MR.  

 

Yes. Okay, thanks for clarifying because I thought you were saying you can only take a single rune on the banner.

 

Basically, the MR Grungni can only be taken by the BSB (BSB only) and gives it a 4+ ward save, so the new book basically forces it on you or else you do not put a runic banner on the BSB and take some other runes. 

 

Not sure how you think the book forces it on you? Do you mean forces it on you because you dont want your BSB to die and at the same time want him to have a Rune Banner?



#19 Durin the Young

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:17 AM

Interesting one, MR of flight, 2xRune of might. Sit it in a unit with two runes of slowness. Moves within range, throw, charges and fails, stand and shoot. Throw again, stand and shoot again. If the has a T5 character, you can hit it for 4 ST10 hits on +2 doing D3 wounds on each if I remember the rune escalation correctly.

#20 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:27 AM

@During the Young: Yes actually I was considering taking that exact combo when I fought O&G this weekend to take down A. Spiders and Giants. 

However it would be Strength 8, not 10, but it is still really good. 

 






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