Jump to content


Photo

Excellent Artillery, How Do You Defend It?

artillery cannons engineering runes organ gun

  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Wardancer

Wardancer

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 32 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:01 AM

So this is hopefully this is the beginning of a very fruitful conversation about dwarven artillery.

 

Let me start by putting my cards on the table.

 

1) I have two organ guns, two cannons, and a flame cannon, i am trying to determine how/which to run them.

 

2) I really like a lot of the runes we got in the new book, and the fact that OGs can now take runes.

 

3) It seems to me that with the new combat intensive rules (like +1 str on the charge, shield wall, potential hatred of everyone, and runesmiths giving armor piercing) melee dwarves are back.  

 

4) I am currently mourning the loss however, of the Organ gun's ballistic skill free style of shooting. BS 3 is a joke, and the OG was once the bane of skirmish, scout and vanguard units. Now the OG is still quite beefy and playable, but in no way ready to adequately protect itself or other warmachines against skirmishing chaff, or flying units simply coming in to pick your warmachines off. Of course you can rune up the OG, but that brings me to point # 4

 

5) While the warmachines are sexy and good, in trying to run 4-5 pieces of artillery, with the appropriate and necessary runes, the warmachines start to occupy a significant portion of the army's points.

 

Here is the rune layout i'm considering at the moment.

 

OG1 - rune of fire, rune of accuracy

 

OG 2 - rune of accuracy

 

cannon 1- rune of forging and rune of fire

 

cannon 2- rune of forging

 

flame cannon rune of forging, 2x rune of fire (just so it has a unique set of runes with rune of forging)

 

Now I may be splurging a little, but these are some crazy potent artillery pieces.

 

They come with a hefty price tag though of 670 points total.

 

So I guess here are my questions:

 

1) What runes do you cut out of your artillery mix? Yes, we could give an OG two runes of accuracy... but can we afford to do that? At the same time... do we really want to run a cannon without a rune of accuracy? We lost the engineer upgrade, the ME got nerfed, and OGs have bs 3. So the new book means we NEED runes on our artillery. What runes do we take?

 

2) If we invest heavily in our artillery, (between 400-700 points) is the best strategy to dedicate more points to protecting the artillery, or to spend the rest of your points on something that will benefit from artillery fire, leaving the artillery pieces to fend (and realistically just die a slow death) for themselves.

 

3)I think its fair to say that by turn 3 artillery left to its own devices will at least be getting charged or heavily shot at by scouts, vanguard, fast cav, flying, ambushers you freaking name it! So do we just accept this fate, praise Grungi, as we squeeze off a few rounds of shooting and then die in the name of the high king? Or, do we spend some points on a babysitter unit for the machines of war? If so, what unit? How many points do you spend on that unit?

 

My current thinking for a good babysitter units might be, slayers or, thunderers (though they'ved failed me in the past) iron drakes, quarellers, or a flame cannon. The protectors would need to be relatively cheap, and effective against the lot that you usually see up against your cannons, quick moving things, that are hard to hit with bs shooting.

 

Not to be rude, but this post is really about artillery. So please don't chime in about gyrocopters or bombers. Also, if you are going to suggest quarllers or thunders, please be sure to mention where you are placing them, and how you intend to use them.

 

Thanks a lot guys!



#2 MoonsOfJupiter

MoonsOfJupiter

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 10 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:32 AM

Drakes with a trollhammer seem like a natural fit as they can change facings and still fire. I would set them up 2x5 in front of the battery. And the troll hammer is an extra artillery shot (BS4) in effect.

 

I'd also consider using an engineer, maybe in place of some of the runes, and setting him up in the middle of the battery. The plan here is for him to countercharge what ever attacks the artillery or Drakes. (What if he joins the Drakes and is still within 3" of the artillery?)  I would give him a GW and maybe RoStone.

 

I'm assuming all the guns are located in close proximity (what I'm calling a 'battery') probably on a hill. 

 

The downside with Drakes is that if nobody comes after the guns what are they to do?

 

 

flame cannon rune of forging, 2x rune of fire (just so it has a unique set of runes with rune of forging)

 Yes, we could give an OG two runes of accuracy...

 

About some of your rune suggestions... The runes of burning and accuracy both indicate that multiple runes have no effect. But I'm not sure if that's the same as you can't buy a 2nd one anyway, so as to skirt the Rule of Pride.



#3 WI Dwarf

WI Dwarf

    Dwarf Warrior

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 87 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:33 AM

i plan on using dual organ guns with same runes as you with a master engineer for each. 140 extra for the engineers i don't know if the +1 bs and reroll artillery dice is worth it but i see a lot of potential to help them out. also if you get the breath weapons on the engineers maybe a good way to deal with skirmishers like skinks. 



#4 Alaric Ironaxe

Alaric Ironaxe

    White Dwarf

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,461 posts
Contributor

Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:39 AM

I actually think you really don't need much defense for your warmachines. OGs may roll to hit now, but as long as you give them the +1 to hit rune they are still easily going to take care of any fast cav/scouts/ambushers that come after your artillery block. Especially given you have two I really think you have nothing to fear.

 

I also think we really don't need more than two artillery pieces given dwarves are much better in combat now, nor will I often be taking more than two given my personal preferences, but that's a different conversation.



#5 Dorack

Dorack

    Dwarf Lord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:41 AM

About your warmachine loadout (which I consider too much in light of the new book, but that is another discussion), I would go:

  • Cannon with Forging
  • Cannon with Forging and Burning
  • Flame Cannon, no runes
  • Organ Gun with Master Engineer
  • Organ Gun with Forging and Accuracy.

You get s significant drop in points.

 

I would seriously advise against runes in the Flame Cannon. There are some key enemies inmune to magic attacks, and the way the Flame Cannon shoots, It's very very hard not to hit something. Flame cannon itself is amazing in dealing with low Ld, skirmishing, away from general+bsb bubble warmachine hunters.



#6 Lord Anvilarm

Lord Anvilarm

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 776 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:54 AM

Put your war machines deep in your deployment zone, maybe even on the back edge, with a couple of blocks of solid troops right beside them, leaving a big enough gap for the war machines to go between the blocks and still see and shoot.

 

Deploy like this: left board edge, cannon, organ gun, block of troops, cannon, flame cannon, block of troops, organ gun. (If you have the points a stubborn or unbreakable block to anchor your line would be ideal here.)

 

Keep things as tight as the rules allow. ie. 1 inch spacing. Have the artillery slightly ahead of the infantry blocks so they can see a good arc of fire.

 

Use Rangers and gyros to slow the enemy's advance. Fire, reload, fire. Repeat as often as possible. Charge anything with your blocks that survives.



#7 marky

marky

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 299 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:20 AM

About your warmachine loadout (which I consider too much in light of the new book, but that is another discussion), I would go:

  • Cannon with Forging
  • Cannon with Forging and Burning
  • Flame Cannon, no runes
  • Organ Gun with Master Engineer
  • Organ Gun with Forging and Accuracy.

You get s significant drop in points.

 

I would seriously advise against runes in the Flame Cannon. There are some key enemies inmune to magic attacks, and the way the Flame Cannon shoots, It's very very hard not to hit something. Flame cannon itself is amazing in dealing with low Ld, skirmishing, away from general+bsb bubble warmachine hunters.

 

 

 

 

Pair up the flame cannon and the organ gun and deploy them with an engineer between them (you can choose which machine to use him with depending on range & situation)

+Put forging on the cannon.

I would drop a cannon & drop an organ gun or run them rune free and ready to die.

 

IMO (at the risk of sounding like Malakai Makaison), I think we are risk being too conservative with our builds (cutting out the hundreds of points of defense lets us get stuff that kills more threats)



#8 Thrundorin

Thrundorin

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 773 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:43 PM

I tend to field a selection of:

 

Organ Gun 1:

Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy

 

Organ Gun 2:

Raw 

 

Cannon 1:

Rune of Forging,

 

Cannon 2:

Rune of Forging, Rune of Fire

 

Grudge Thrower:

Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetrating

 

Flame Cannon: 

Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Fire

 

Put in a master engineer to improve BS of the organ gun and grant a re-roll to to it in case of misfire, and emplace an artillery piece.

Feel free to add ME's to make Grudge Thrower more accurate in indirect fire and emplace more artillery. 

 

A few engineers hanging around can make charging the area more or less tempting, depending on who your fighting. 

This does add around 200-250 points in runes alone and 80-250 points in engineers, without the base warmachine costs, but it makes the area a lot more survivable and reliable, and will ruin the other sides day. Hard cover for your warmachine park is useful. 



#9 BadMojo

BadMojo

    Dwarf Warrior

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 123 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:38 PM

@ Thrundorin - Why place Rune of Accuracy on a Flame Cannon?  Doesn't that do nothing since it doesn't use BS or the scatter die?

 

I'm debating how I want my Flame Cannon runed out.  On the one hand, Rune of Forging avoids the Misfire.  However, two Runes of Penetrating give you S6 for that great -3 AS and the ability to re-roll a single wound.  Against monstrous cavalry or Ogres, that could be really useful.

 

As for the other war machines, I'm leaving my Bolt Throwers at home.  The Cannons might be runed for Forging only.  Grudgethrowers get Accuracy but that's it.

 

All-in-all, war machines are eating up too many of my points!



#10 Grungivaldi

Grungivaldi

    Dwarf Warrior

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 53 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:15 PM

Naked organ guns are pretty much as cost effective as they were in the old book. Rune of accuracy will increase its output by about 30% while only increasing the cost by about 20%. Cannons with forging are 14% less cost effective than the used to be, bolt throwers got hit hard losing 20% effectiveness. You might want to try using gyrocopters as war machine defenders. Yeah they are only S3 but the maneuverability let's them react quickly to ambushers and they are cheap.

#11 The Low King

The Low King

    Grundadum

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,437 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:36 PM

Best way to protect warmachines is to eliminate the things that can threaten them.

 

Rangers scouting or Gyrocopters vanguarding make excellent units to prevent enemy units being able to scout/vanguard near your warmachines (since they have to stay 12" away). Just remember not to leave holes in your deployment zone that enemy scouts can go into (particularly behind your lines), since that causes problems.

 

Personally, I try to kill chaff/fast cav quickly anyway since they can be very annoying for our combat blocks. Gyrocopters do excellently in this role, able to Shoot, Divebomb or Charge most such units in the game without too much of an issue. A fast cav unit that has taken a few casualties will just die if they charge our warmachines, since our crew are pretty tough.

 

Alternatively, if you want to take a more defensive approach, a unit of thunderers with shields (since they can shrug off most warmachine hunter or cavalry charges) or a small unit of Irondrakes can easily pick of approaching enemies. I think thunderers over quarrelers because the shields, Ap (since fast cav tend to have a 5+ save) and cost leave them better suited to killing fast cav and skirmishers.

 

Lone dragon slayers or small units used to make effective warmachine protectors, but I think dragon slayers are now too expensive and irondrakes do the job far better than any other elite unit. A master engineer could still be effective if you want to take him solo though.

 

 

As for runes;

I think forging on the flame cannon to avoid the misfire penalty when you use its range and accuracy on the organ guns is very effective. Also, consider immolation to kill any fast cav that actually make it, a dead mans switch.



#12 Lugh Lámh Fhada

Lugh Lámh Fhada

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:46 PM

I'm toying with the idea of having Grimm Burloksson and a unit of thunderers with my organ gun. Grimm has BS 5, +1 to hit and re-roll an artillery dice for the organ gun! With 30" range on the OG, hopefully you'll be able to hit something in the first round. Then either go again, or let him join the thunderers where he gives them a re-roll on all missed hits. He also has strength 6 so should be handy enough in a fight.

 

165 is a high price to pay though...



#13 Lugh Lámh Fhada

Lugh Lámh Fhada

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:57 PM

Sorry just checked it there - war machines don't get +1 to hit from Grimm B, they just use his BS. Still pretty good though!







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: artillery, cannons, engineering runes, organ gun

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users