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Cannon Or Organ Gun?

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#1 Thorgrimtheunyielding

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 10:46 PM

I recently purchased the Dwarf Cannon/Organ Gun, and was debating about which one to build. Which one would be the most effective in a battle?



#2 Swordthain

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 12:15 AM

It's not a matter of one being more effective than the other; it's a matter of each being designed with unique tactical capabilities. Decide which tactical capability you need for your strategic concept of your army and choose the one that fills that role. If you're new, my guess is you have no Cannons already. If so, you'll really need one, so I'd either build it as a Cannon --or as an Organ Gun with the intnent of buying Cannons cheap off Ebay or something...

EDIT: Alternatively, you may think about building it so you can change out the barrels as desired. Several Dwarf players have done this, and you can probably find a good tutorial showing how.

Edited by Swordthain, 26 December 2013 - 12:18 AM.


#3 Granitbeard

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 12:50 AM

I would say build it as a Organ Gun and buy a Grudge Thrower. I hate cannons, they hate me. Mine always miss fire. My Grudge throwers are usually spot on. Plus to me Organ Gun is more well rounded.



#4 thormon

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 09:16 AM

If you're mainly facing Chaos Warriors or Ogres, then I would say Cannon. Against other armies the Organ Gun is most of the time more useful.



#5 Novgord V

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 11:25 AM

Try to build two with that one kit.

For the Empire it was possible with the Mortar/Cannon kit. You only needed some creativity.



#6 Thorrin

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 11:45 AM

Go to the forge and their will be a topic about making a cannon and an organ gun from one box then you can use both

#7 Thorgrimtheunyielding

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 07:34 PM

Thanks.

 



#8 Komgol

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:55 PM

Cannons are the most reliable artillery in the Dwarven army.

 

The Bolt Thrower, well it never misfires and it's cheap.  If you position them well on your flanks you can set up some great flank shots on enemy cavalry units!  That said the accuracy is fairly low so I often find that i"m better off taking 2 pairs of them on either side for a bit of reliability.

 

Your Organ Gun is deadly, especially against skirmishers/light cavalry/chaff, but it will misfire 1/6 shots and the misfires on that bad boy rarely go well.

 

Your Grudge Thrower is devastating, with the ability to hit 21 T3 models in a single shot, wounding them all on 2's.  Also you'll often do some damage, even when you miss.  You use it to snipe larger/tougher things with the middle only but it's not terribly accurate, so it doesn't always work well.

 

I have my own opinion about Flame Cannons (I don't think they're nearly as bad as most people on this board seem to), and I think they can be very useful against certain types of opponents.

 

And then there's the Cannon.  The Cannon is a very bad man.  The cannon hits with incredible accuracy.  With Rune of Forging, I believe it's something like a 71% chance to hit a model 20-50mm deep and a 83% chance to hit a single model over 50mm deep.  Of course when you're shooting with some room for error (a few ranks of troops for instance) the accuracy goes up.  It will only "misfire" 1/36 times due to Rune of Forging, so you don't have to worry too much.  When it does hit, it hits like a 18-wheeler at 85 mph into a deer.  It wounds on a 2 against almost everything, and does D6 wounds.  This means it has a 46% chance to completely wipe out a 3-wound model such as an enemy war machine every time it shoots.



#9 Granitbeard

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 12:23 AM

Kromgol, I have to say that your discriptions of our Warmachines are fairly accuracte, save for cannons and Grudge Throwers. The Flame cannon has its place, but if used just like the new rules have it work its use is limited more by only having M3.

 

To me, cannons are only taken when I run out of Grudge Thrower models. Yes I know the "math" is their but I must be the only person who rolls a misfire and then re-rolls a misfire with my cannon on turn one. I tried bringing  two cannons as they are the "monster" of our artilery, out 10 games they blew them selves up on turn one in 9 games, in the 10th one blew up turn one and the other did 1 wound to a giant then blew its self up. My Grudge throwers on the other hand, always seem to roll a hit and never many misfires. and on top of that, they tend to roll 5s and 6s for number of wounds.

 

Yes this is my experiance with them, but I am can not be alone in not turning to cannons as my main choice of warmachine.



#10 Swordthain

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 03:23 AM

Granitbeard, your experience is unfortunate, and as I have had my share of similar experiences, I feel your pain. Of course, you must realize that the difference in the model on the table--whether Cannon or Grudge Thrower--does not affect your dice rolls... The odds of you continuing to roll as badly as you did with your 10-game outing with Cannons are astronomical (as are the odds you would have such an experience in the first place)! Nothing prevents you from taking both Cannons and Grudge Throwers, of course, except perhaps limited points.



#11 Komgol

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 09:05 AM

Kromgol, I have to say that your discriptions of our Warmachines are fairly accuracte, save for cannons and Grudge Throwers. The Flame cannon has its place, but if used just like the new rules have it work its use is limited more by only having M3.

 

To me, cannons are only taken when I run out of Grudge Thrower models. Yes I know the "math" is their but I must be the only person who rolls a misfire and then re-rolls a misfire with my cannon on turn one. I tried bringing  two cannons as they are the "monster" of our artilery, out 10 games they blew them selves up on turn one in 9 games, in the 10th one blew up turn one and the other did 1 wound to a giant then blew its self up. My Grudge throwers on the other hand, always seem to roll a hit and never many misfires. and on top of that, they tend to roll 5s and 6s for number of wounds.

 

Yes this is my experiance with them, but I am can not be alone in not turning to cannons as my main choice of warmachine.

 

I don't doubt you've had some extremely bad luck with cannons, but for the sake of defending the "math":

 

The probability of a cannon double-misfiring is 0.028, the same odds as rolling insane courage on a leadership test.

 

The probability of two cannons both double misfiring is 0.00077, pretty rare but it certainly happens (we've all seen consecutive double 6's)

 

The probability of this happening in two consecutive games is 5.9 E(-7).  AKA: rolling 8 dice and having them all come up "6".

 

The probability of this happening in three consecutive games is 4.6 E(-10), you're far more likely to win the lottery.  AKA: rolling 12 dice and having them all come up "6".

 

Nine consecutive games is so statistically unlikely that it's considered impossible.  It's the same as rolling 36 dice and having them all come up "6".

 

Of course, these numbers change if you're not using Rune of Forging, but the odds are still incredibly slim.


Edited by Komgol, 01 January 2014 - 09:07 AM.


#12 Granitbeard

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 01:53 PM

As an engineer I have done the math for my luck and I am always at the very unlikely to "will never happen" boat when it comes to warhammer. I stopped using my cannon because they never lived long enough to do anything. When I tried them again and had the luck I had, I dropped them again. Again you would say that my misfires with my cannons is impossible, but the Why can I never remember not getting a hit with my Grudge Thrower. basically the odds you were point out about the 6s, some people jsut have the most messed up luck.

 

Take my bretonnians, I tend to roll more 6+ ward saves then 2+ armor saves. How can on fail 7 2+ armor saves then make 6 or 7 6+ ward saves and not look at their luck as odd (this happend in my last tournament game with them twice).



#13 Brodir Redhand

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 01:34 PM

As an engineer I have done the math for my luck and I am always at the very unlikely to "will never happen" boat when it comes to warhammer. I stopped using my cannon because they never lived long enough to do anything. When I tried them again and had the luck I had, I dropped them again. Again you would say that my misfires with my cannons is impossible, but the Why can I never remember not getting a hit with my Grudge Thrower. basically the odds you were point out about the 6s, some people jsut have the most messed up luck.

 

Take my bretonnians, I tend to roll more 6+ ward saves then 2+ armor saves. How can on fail 7 2+ armor saves then make 6 or 7 6+ ward saves and not look at their luck as odd (this happend in my last tournament game with them twice).

 

Theory always looks sensible Granitebeard.

 

But if you can believe the results of a probability test with GW and CHESSEX 12mm dice; they rolled ONES between 23-28% of the rolls over an 11k+ sample, then it's a different game of chance. Don't have the link, but not hard to find on the net. I think also it featured on Warseer.

 

So, instead of changing the cannons, you could move up to 16mm or Casino dice for your critical rolls.

 

BR


Edited by Brodir Redhand, 02 January 2014 - 01:36 PM.


#14 Granitbeard

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:05 PM

 

 

Theory always looks sensible Granitebeard.

 

But if you can believe the results of a probability test with GW and CHESSEX 12mm dice; they rolled ONES between 23-28% of the rolls over an 11k+ sample, then it's a different game of chance. Don't have the link, but not hard to find on the net. I think also it featured on Warseer.

 

So, instead of changing the cannons, you could move up to 16mm or Casino dice for your critical rolls.

 

BR

 

 

I just got a large batch of offical casino dice and had a few given symbols of one side (hit/misfire) and will prewrite numbers to numbers/arrows for a set table edge or something for arrows.



#15 JuQ

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:32 PM

We don't know how is going to end the Organ Gun in the upcoming armybook, but we do now that a Cannon will remain as it is now because it is defined on the rulebook. So if you don't have any cannon, I recomend building one because is the answer to most of the bigger threats in the game.







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