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2500Pts Ambush For Competitive Tournament

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#1 Cuthbo

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:53 AM

Hi guys, I really need your help! The reputation of all Dwarves is on the line.

 

I have a big tournament coming up (Thursday-Sunday) and after playing one very successful Ambush list against a friend I was thinking of taking a similar list. But will it work against the following armies I will be facing (almost certainly):

 

High Elves: Magic Heavy, experienced player, scouts

Vampire Counts: Magic Heavy, LOADS of zombies, some ethereal, Experienced player. 

Skaven: Magic Heavy, loads of rats, inexperienced player

Warriors of Chaos: Not sure but definitely will have a Giant and knights. Inexperienced player

 

I have been on a winning streak so everyone is very keen to beat me (they actually seem to think Dwarves are invincible and "broken"). I know better. I have just been lucky!

 

Here is my list so far:

 

Runelord w/ Anvil of Doom - shield, RoStone, Master Rune of Balance (373pts)

 

Runesmith w/ shield, RoStone, Rune of Spellbreaking (102pts)

 

Thane BSB w/ RoStone, Challenge and Brotherhood (140pts)

 

 

Longbeard Rangers x 42 w/ RoDetermination (BSB goes here) plus full command (633pts - is this way too high for one unit which could be obliterated?)

 

 

Miners x 40 w/ Drill and FC (485pts)

 

Miners x 32 (352pts)

 

Cannon w/ Engineer, Ro Forging, Ro Burning (for the abomination, giant and other nasties) (150pts)

 

Cannon w/ Ro Forging (as above) (125pts)

 

 

Gyrocopter (for collecting Victory Points, charging down fleeing units, flank charges etc - or is an Organ Gun better here?) (140pts)

 

 

I know these kinds of lists have been going around but if you guys can help me hone this I will be indebted. The competition is fierce and many grudges remain unsettled. Is Ambush the wrong way to go for an all-comers tournament? I really really really hate gunlines. But what of a more balanced list?



#2 Swordthain

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 03:42 PM

You’re on the right track, but you can change a few things to make this list a lot harder.

First, drop the Runesmith. You won’t need him. Your Runelord should have a shield, RoStone, RoResistance, RoShielding, MRoBalance, RoSpellbreaking, and possibly a RoCleaving. Alternatively, you might drop the RoStone in favor of a second RoSpellbreaking. Deploy him in a corner, preferably behind terrain, where your opponent will have the hardest time getting to him. In rare cases, you’ll be able to deploy him behind terrain such that he is virtually impossible to engage in close combat, like behind a building set up at an angle right on the edge of the board in one corner, where any unit would have to first enter the building and then exit but cannot due to limited space.

Next, your BSB should have the MRoGromril, the MRoChallenge, a RoBrotherhood, and since you have 5 points left over, why not? Give him a RoFire or RotFurnace to either give him flaming attacks or a 2+ Ward Save against flaming attacks.

Your Longbeard Rangers and first unit of Miners are great! If you have the points, add more Rangers, but if not, don’t worry. You’re right in the zone! Your second unit of Miners is weak, though. Push them up to 40ish and give them full command.

Last thing regarding your list, you probably won’t have the points for both Cannons and the Gyrocopter. I would advise at least one Cannon, probably two, but choose either the Gyrocopter or the second Cannon to keep and drop the other. This is a judgment call on your part. Choose which you think will be most essential for you to have.

As for your opponents, I can provide some limited advice on how to use this force against each.

Warriors of Chaos are generally your toughest opponent, but he’s not unbeatable. Beware of your opponent’s Daemon Prince! Most WoC players run one nowadays. Stay out of combat with him if at all possible! He’s going to be mobile enough that he might not give you the option to avoid combat. Take him out with your Cannons, but if you can’t, refuse challenges and allocate every attack available against him. If you do, you have a chance to kill him early, especially if you’ve weakened him at all with your Cannons. If you don’t kill him early, you will lose the unit, so try to make it survive as long as possible. Use your other units in the meantime to destroy the rest of his army. The same goes for monsters and chariots, too, but to a lesser degree: kill with Cannons, and if they don’t go down, try to get a favorable charge against them before they do you. Against an inexperienced player, you’ll have a lot better chance, as he might do foolish things like send his Skull Crushers to take out your Anvil of Doom (charge him on the flank with a unit of Miners) or go after your Cannons with his Daemon Prince, leaving your Longbeard Rangers free to smash things up. Try to get multiple charges on things you can, snipe spellcasters, and take out units quickly to minimize damage to your combat blocks.

Against Vampire Counts, you’ll similarly want to steer clear of his Vampire Lord if he’s tooled-up for close combat (most are these days). If you do happen to get into close combat for whatever reason, again, no matter what else you might be fighting, allocate every attack available on the Vampire Lord. Enough S6/S5 attacks should bring him down. If not, just assume you’ll eventually lose the unit, so make it as survivable as possible using challenges and active combat resolution to kill as much as you can. You might, just might, be able to make the Vampire Lord crumble, so be on the lookout for that opportunity. If you see it, take it. You probably won’t get a second chance. Take out monsters with your Cannons and use the Anvil of Doom to slow down the Vampire Lord and keep him away from your units. Just about everything else in the Vampire Counts army will die if you touch it, so go to town slaughtering Zombies! If your opponent is inexperienced, you have a decent chance of tabling him. Against an experienced player, just make sure to shut down his magic phase and you’ll have a decent chance of taking home a win.

Against Skaven, you’ll want to play very much like you would against Vampire Counts. Stay away from combat with his HPAs. Kill them with your Cannons. Look for opportunities to take out his spellcasters early! Skaven magic will ruin your day, and they won’t care that that it took a miscast to do so. Often, their spellcasters will be bunkered in big units of rats, so allocate as many attacks as you can against the spellcasters, because you shouldn’t have any trouble wading through the sea of ratmen thereafter. Against an inexperienced player, you’ll have a decent chance of obtaining a strong win.

Against the High Elf player, you’ll probably have the toughest matchup, especially if he’s an experienced player. Watch out for a unit of 20ish Phoenix Guards with a bunkered spellcaster and possible Banner of the World Dragon. You have two options with this that you’ll have to weigh carefully. The first option is to engage this unit, snipe the spellcaster, and hope that your opponent can’t do enough damage to break your Rangers before your Miners show up in support. The second option is to avoid the unit entirely, using the Anvil of Doom to push you around the board taking out everything else in the High Elf army. You’ll eventually have to fight the Phoenix Guard unit, but if you do so later rather than sooner, you’ll have less to worry about your unit getting bogged down in combat with them but more to worry about from his spellcaster flinging magic at you the first few rounds of the game… It’s a tough call. Whatever you do, remember your training: take out monsters and flyers quickly with your Cannons and let your troops go to town against his troops. A lot of people get nervous when they see 10-15 Swordmasters or White Lions. Don’t worry. With your large units, you should be able to shrug off the casualties they inflict and then proceed to decimate those units.

Last, take a bucketful of dice! Any that perform badly, punish by sticking them in the microwave. Ha!

Good luck!


Edited by Swordthain, 14 October 2013 - 04:00 PM.


#3 Swordthain

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

Oh, one more thing. A universal point of deontological import: the ONLY time you EVER use Ancient Power with your Anvil of Doom is if you ABSOLUTELY WILL lose the game unless you are able to charge with multiple units during that shooting phase!



#4 Cuthbo

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:33 AM

Wow! Thanks Swordthain - as always, golden advice. Also your evaluation of their armies is uncanny - i've heard the High Elf player mention something about an invincible unit for his mage to bunker down in. Must be the Phoenix Guard! 

 

Big question - do you take all your units in Horde formation?

 

I am a little worried about magic resistance being up to scratch. Almost all the armies will be SUPER heavy magic - in fact I suspect the Vampire Counts will have 2 Vampires (1 of them a lord) and maybe as many as 3 necromancers! I am most worried about PIT OF SHADES. Everyone has cottoned on to the fact that it basically auto-wins against Dwarfs. Will the Runelord be enough? 

 

So, using what you said (dropped the Shielding on the Runelord cos I don't think any magic missiles will go his way - these players just love throwing PIT OF SHADES over!) here is the new list:

 

Runelord w/ Anvil of Doom - shield, RoStone, Master Rune of Balance, RoResistance, Spellbreaking (423pts)

 

Thane BSB w/ MRoGromril, Challenge and Brotherhood, RoFire (165pts)

 

 

Longbeard Rangers x 42 w/ RoDetermination (BSB goes here) plus full command (633pts)

 

 

Miners x 40 w/ Drill and FC (485pts)

 

Miners x 34 w/ Standard and Prospector (394pts)

 

Cannon w/ Engineer (BoP), Ro Forging, Ro Burning (150pts)

 

Cannon w/ Ro Forging (125pts)

 

 

Organ Gun (120pts)

 

Looking at the list now I am wondering how useful the Organ Gun will be. But all my opponents fear it more than any other unit of mine. It makes them lose their heads. Just for that, it might be worth having!

 

Thanks for the deployment tips and i'll definitely take your advise about the Anvil - Ancient Power seems pretty flakey. 

 



#5 Swordthain

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:13 PM

I think the Organ Gun is too short-ranged to provide synergy for an ambush force. I think if you decide to keep it, deploy it near your Anvil of Doom, since your opponents may just decide your Anvil is too scary of a target to molest; but my hunch is that will only work once before your opponents figure out that it just makes your Anvil a bigger target with an even bigger reward for your opponents' efforts to take it out along with your Organ Gun. Plus, it takes points away from the rest of your force. I would love to see that second unit of Miners get some more models and a Musician. Swift reforms come in really handy in using an ambush army. If you're concerned about your magic defense, add a second RoSpellbreaking to your Runelord and check out the last couple of posts in the Runelord tactica in the Dwarf Tavern section.

Edited by Swordthain, 15 October 2013 - 02:14 PM.


#6 Cuthbo

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:22 PM

Damn you're right - actually a Gyrocopter might be a better option. I'm reluctant to take more bodies for a purely aesthetic reason - I have only painted about the number of dwarves I have on this list - and the unit of 30-odd miners is a themed unit (winter/santa). So adding more unpainted guys will look nasty. Shallow, I know.

 

Musician, though - good idea. Forgot about the swift reform thing!

 

Thanks again for the help



#7 Swordthain

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:34 PM

Well, I understand vanity! Ha! I twinge with guilt every time I look at my Dwarfs, because I have so much painting to do!!! Seriously, though, I encourage you to put down your foolish Dwarven pride and add a few unpainted models. When you see what two full hordes of 40 Miners are capable of, you'll be that much more motivated to get more Dwarfs painted!


Edited by Swordthain, 15 October 2013 - 08:34 PM.


#8 Cuthbo

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:46 PM

Hey Swordthain, I don't have very much time at the moment but just wanted to say thanks for the advice - I played 3 games and got 2 crushing victories (Warriors of Chaos and Skaven)! I then had a crushing defeat from my little brother (Vampire Counts) but the army still gave a good account of itself. I won the Tournament overall, though not everyone managed to play 3 games. I have to say I was super lucky against the Skaven player.

 

I took the Organ Gun instead of the Gyrocopter and in hindsight I think the Gyro may have been better (more suited to the ambush). Also the 2 cannons were the best units in my army - they managed to kill all the nasty stuff in turns 1 or 2. They failed only when it came to Vampire Counts due to annoying Ward saves.

 

Basic tactic - Anvil went behind a building in each game supported by 1 cannon and organ gun. Other cannon always went over to the opposite corner. This, along with the lack of targets, threw most of the players into confusion! 

 

I'll hopefully post a battle report soon though I am crazily busy at the moment!

 



#9 Swordthain

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 11:07 PM

So glad to hear you had such a good time with the ambush-style Dwarf army! I'll look forward to the battle reports!

I just posted three new battle reports using a very similar build, in case you're interested.

#10 Dolgrim Brassbottom

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:33 AM

Playing against Armies that don't run I feel is the ambush lists biggest problem. we need those units to run so we can move on. If we get stuck or tarpited it leaves the flanks open. It also stops us from using our rune of challange which is a big deal. forget the organ gun the gyro is better with this list build and the steam gun is not bad for shooting hordes of zombies. or a rear charge to tie them up.







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