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Canon Or Organ Gun Vs. Bretonnians Basic Battalion !?

canon organ gun

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#1 Nurin

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:53 AM

I just wonder whitch is better in your opinion vs. bretonnians basic battalions.

I have dwarf battalion and he has bretonnians battalion and thats it... we just want to learn how to play so we can build bigger army... So i read all kind of posts about canon and organ gun, so whitch is better vs bretonians..., also thunderers or quall. or rangers and why :) ?

 

Sry for asking this basic quest. but i'm still learning the details of the perfect tactic.

 

Thx.



#2 Swordthain

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:46 PM

It depends on the situation. Cannons are great against Knights, and they can also take out Field Trebuchets and characters on Pegasi or the like, so I would suggest a Cannon. Bretonnian Peasant Bowmen have longer range than an Organ Gun, though you probably wouldn't want to waste a shot from either a Cannon or an Organ Gun on Peasant Bowmen. I would suggest a combination of Thunderers and Quarrellers against Bretonnians. Thunderers are excellent against their Knights, since they're S4 and Armour piercing, so you'll generally hit on 4+, wound on 3+, and then your opponent will have a 4+ Armour save and a 6+ Ward save. Quarrellers are good, too, since they're still S4 and have 30" range (same as Peasant Bowmen with their Longbows).

#3 Thane Morgran

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:02 PM

I'm a big fan of quarrellers with great weapons, so I'd go with that for your missile troops as it allows them to pull double duty in both melee and shooting.

 

As for the war machine, I'd say go with the cannon.  The organ gun will perform better, but would probably be too effective. As a result, you'll learn less from using it and your oppenent may loose hope... I mean really, a cannon will happily kill ~2 knights per turn, meaning his lance will drop to ~5 models before they charge which is perfectly manageable for your infantry blocks.  An organ gun could wipe out 3-4 per turn, and if you get lucky will just obliterate a unit in a single volley.  I'd say it'd not be fun to have the entire game end because you happened to roll well on a single round of shooting with a single machine.  Of course in larger games this is less of an issue, but it can be to much of a variable in smaller games...



#4 Cuthbo

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:56 PM

I agree with Thane Morgan about the Organ Gun 100%. It'll ruin your friendship.



#5 Swordthain

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:10 PM

Well, if it ruins someone's friendship, you've got bigger problems to deal with--like the fact that you're not really friends to begin with or the fact that your opponent is obviously investing far too much of his or her self-worth into the game...

Organ Guns are great, but they're not as powerful as I think my compatriots would have you believe. They are correct to say that their effectiveness is intensified in smaller games. Still, an Organ Gun is just as apt to misfire as any other war machine and more apt to explode than most due to the unforgiving misfire chart. The ability to reroll the number of hits if you don't roll a misfire ensures a consistent ~6 hits when it shoots, which do automatically hit, but at S5, they increase a Bretonnian Knight's Ward save to 5+, meaning that the Organ Gun is actually slightly inferior to a unit of 10 Thunderers (closest points comparison) against them. Additionally, Thunderers will get a chance to stand-and-shoot (usually) against the Knights.

#6 King Bazak Stonefist

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:15 PM

I'm a big fan of quarrellers with great weapons, so I'd go with that for your missile troops as it allows them to pull double duty in both melee and shooting.

 

As for the war machine, I'd say go with the cannon.  The organ gun will perform better, but would probably be too effective. As a result, you'll learn less from using it and your oppenent may loose hope... I mean really, a cannon will happily kill ~2 knights per turn, meaning his lance will drop to ~5 models before they charge which is perfectly manageable for your infantry blocks.  An organ gun could wipe out 3-4 per turn, and if you get lucky will just obliterate a unit in a single volley.  I'd say it'd not be fun to have the entire game end because you happened to roll well on a single round of shooting with a single machine.  Of course in larger games this is less of an issue, but it can be to much of a variable in smaller games...

 

I agree with everything the good Thane said here, lol. Organ guns have to be used responsibly, and they can rob the fun from your opponent if they;re too successful. This guy wants to crash his knights into you, but with his brand new army - he's not exactly equipped to deal with reacting to a S5, ~6 shot per turn death machine. Until he is ready to get hosed with 20 shots a turn and watch entire units of his new Grail Knights wilt away, you should stick with the cannon.

 

 

Also - I just started running 7x2 GW quarreler lines as a way of stretching my frontage while being able to get some more shooting and painful flank attacks in, and I can say as well that they are one of our most versatile unit configurations. 



#7 Grim1

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:45 PM

cannon, we normally get to shoot more with cannon than organ gun, especially if they bless the knights. and there's nothing better than taking out a hero especially the bsb with a direct hit failed los in a small units of knights.



#8 King Bazak Stonefist

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:11 PM

It's like our version of the Hocland rifle, but more fun to fire!



#9 Nurin

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:52 PM

cool thx for advice... can you sugest me what rune to use for my canon and my engineer against the brets. ?

 



#10 Grim1

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 09:36 PM

forging to reroll the dice on misfire for the strike (1st artillery dice roll) or the bounce (2nd artillery dice roll) plus flaming to make the cavalry "fear" attacking the cannon. always consider that 10" is the distance that most cannon should be aimed from. more or less is possible but 10" from the back of the figure is the best position to aim for.



#11 Swordthain

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:00 AM

Good advice, Grim1. You'll want a RoForging on the Cannon and maybe a RoBurning. Aiming 10 inches from the far side of your target's base ensures the best chance of hitting that particular model. If you're shooting at a bus of Knights, I'd aim 9" from the far side of the front Knight's base in order to maximize my chances of hitting that Knight and bouncing through to hit Knights behind him. As a general rule of thumb, aiming 10" from the far side of your target's base will give you the best odds of hitting your target.





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