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How Can We Fix Slayers?

slayers new revamp

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#101 Rune of Might

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:25 PM

a single troll slayer should never be able to stand up to a troll. wound it yes, kill it no. this is why the dwarf slayers still fight in ranked units of multiple dwarf slayers. They should add banners that cause the unit to have flaming attacks for 50 points, that could make sense. but as far as an armor save or ward save? It is part of their Slayer Oath that they do not use these. I think it is enough that the unit can benefit from a neighboring unit with the Grungni rune on their standard. All I am really saying is that they need to add more runes that would take pressenance in this edition and fix the slayer rule to not incorporate the strength bonus of items. a troll slayer with a great weapon should be able to have the strength 6 against a Toughness 6 opponent but still recieve the +2 strength from the Great Weapon and have a Str of 8. These are the things that made slayers a feared unit back in the 4th edition book.... but then again there were emporer dragons with a toughness of 10 and a blood thirster with a toughness of 8...grumble*grumble*grumble* things were so much better in the old days.... You beardlings just don't know....



#102 Foe-Hammer

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:39 PM

a single troll slayer should never be able to stand up to a troll. wound it yes, kill it no. this is why the dwarf slayers still fight in ranked units of multiple dwarf slayers. They should add banners that cause the unit to have flaming attacks for 50 points, that could make sense. but as far as an armor save or ward save? It is part of their Slayer Oath that they do not use these. I think it is enough that the unit can benefit from a neighboring unit with the Grungni rune on their standard. All I am really saying is that they need to add more runes that would take pressenance in this edition and fix the slayer rule to not incorporate the strength bonus of items. a troll slayer with a great weapon should be able to have the strength 6 against a Toughness 6 opponent but still recieve the +2 strength from the Great Weapon and have a Str of 8. These are the things that made slayers a feared unit back in the 4th edition book.... but then again there were emporer dragons with a toughness of 10 and a blood thirster with a toughness of 8...grumble*grumble*grumble* things were so much better in the old days.... You beardlings just don't know....

 

Ahhh... the days of Herohammer.... the days when Bretonnia could take 75% characters, and have a dragon in a 1000 point army, and take on opposing armies with said character.   :happy:

 

As far as fluff for slayers - novel/story wise, they die in droves in battle, and only a small few are strong enough to take on dragons and greater demons... and some barely have clothes on!  :blink:



#103 thormon

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 12:03 AM

I agree that they should die in battle. And because of that, I think a 5+ ward against shooting/magic missiles is a good idea. Get em in battle safe, and then get the action going.



#104 Granitbeard

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:44 AM

slayers strike off on their own and only go to other Dwarf holds when they absolutely have to. They often even go to human towns before going to a Dwarf hold. They team up when they run into another slayer that is heading off to fight the same big bad thingy in a cave. They shun they past live only knowing their dishonor, take with them what they feel will allow them to reclaim their honor in death. They swear an oath to a Dwarf god, Grimnir, to prove their determination to reclain their honor see that he will only grant them a worthy death when he deems it. If no such foe crosses their path, they keep searching for it. As they do, they grow in strength and prowis, much to what they must see as shame.

 

I can't see how some slayers would grow to do things other beings in the warhammer world, seem to do just naturally. I could see how their Oath to Grimnir, would grant them a "worthy" death ward save vs some things. Them being in units always seemed weird to me, so lone models or skirmishers works better for me. Slayers that have killed giants, dragons, and Big deamon should be able to deal some serious hurt to a lot of things.

 

my two cents.



#105 evanger

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:38 PM

I think we need to consider all the evidence when thinking about the proper role (and fake history) of slayers.

 

Surely the fluff over-emphasizes their loner nature; Gotrek and Felix, for instance.

 

However, for more than 25 years (I think) the rules of the tabletop game we play have had bands of these orange haired guys working together in times of war.

 

I imagine that when my throng marches to battle from the gates of Karak Hirn, some exiled and wandering slayers are drawn to the coming conflict, knowing that a massed battle is a wonderful place to meet their glorious end.

 

Perhaps as the main force marches along, slayers emerge from the surrounding hills and mountainsides, eager to join the effort but no doubt keeping their distance from the "proper" and "honorable" rank and file dwarfs.

 

Slayers are immune to psychology (and probably always have been, game rule wise), but they are not frenzied berserkers (at least not now). They live with a shame or dishonor bad enough for them to have left home and abandoned their former lives, but they have also steadfastly committed themselves to a cause that will hopefully clear their name upon a glorious death in battle.

 

I would imagine that the dawi of Karak Hirn, led by King Alrik, look upon the tattooed, orange haired warriors tagging along with a mixture of distaste, pity and appreciation (perhaps even awe). No doubt that when the battle is joined the rank and file dwarf clansmen are glad to have the unbreakable slayers on their side.

 

 

As for their individual power and capabilities, I agree that they are used to dying in droves, and are surely not equipped to kill their name-sakes in solo combat. If anything, their titles are wishful thinking or some attempt at foreshadowing or similar. Surely they'd all like to pit themselves against the worst thing they can find on the battlefield, and die swinging their axes at some truly horrible opponent.


Edited by evanger, 14 January 2014 - 03:39 PM.


#106 Lomack

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 12:50 AM

Remember we are going to get basic slayers and an upgrade version in the new book
(Like the witch elves and upgrade version in the dual kit they have)
This had been a solid rumour for the boxed kit.

So GW will have two goes at answering out varied and mutually exclusive wishlists!

#107 Grombri Stonebrow

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:33 PM

Some of the folks around here have had a peek at the new book and unfortunately it doesn't look good for the slayers. No ward saves and no armor (obviously) but supposedly slayers get to attack before being removed as casualties. Also Ungrim is back!

#108 Durak

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 08:46 PM

Some of the folks around here have had a peek at the new book and unfortunately it doesn't look good for the slayers. No ward saves and no armor (obviously) but supposedly slayers get to attack before being removed as casualties. Also Ungrim is back!

 

Things look great for slayers!

 

From what I've heard...unit cap gone. Deathblow.

 

So take 40 slayers. Someone charges you, kills 10. Those 10 models attack, and you get your normal 30 attacks on top of that. It's awesome. 

 

Slayers can also take runic banners.

Dragon slayers do d3 wounds

Daemon slayers make foe re-roll ward saves

 

Ungrim is a beast, whom if the rumors are right, I will always take. 

 

 

No, slayers don't have staying power. But they are spiteful little maniacs who will carve you up and won't care if you gut them in the process. They sound great to me. 



#109 Montegue

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:05 PM

Slayers are now a must-handle threat, and at a slave less in cost than the other Specials, using them could open up more room for special artillery. They aren't as burly as Hammerers, and they aren't as tough as Ironbreakers, but they don't break, and every death is potentially one more wound. Given the banner that grants vanguard, they can immediately put pressure on a key point of the enemy deployment while more elite units move in for the counter charge.

 

Small units of Slayers also make excellent flank guards and flanking units. While they can't enjoy a Runelord's armor penetration benefits, they do benefit from a +1 S on the charge and Slayer Strength. Unwary opponents might try to charge them, but then they may get stuck and counter charged by an even deadlier unit, like hammerers.

 

I said it before, but I think these guys are the sleeper hit of the book. Everyone will be taking Irondrakes and hammerers, but a large group of slayers with heroes or small units of slayers can serve many funcrtions, especially with Vanguard being so ubiquitous. Oh, you killed six with your impact hits? well, here's six attacks at S6 before anything else happens.



#110 BLOOD AXE

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:14 PM


Some of the folks around here have had a peek at the new book and unfortunately it doesn't look good for the slayers. No ward saves and no armor (obviously) but supposedly slayers get to attack before being removed as casualties. Also Ungrim is back!


Things look great for slayers!

From what I've heard...unit cap gone. Deathblow.

So take 40 slayers. Someone charges you, kills 10. Those 10 models attack, and you get your normal 30 attacks on top of that. It's awesome.

Slayers can also take runic banners.
Dragon slayers do d3 wounds
Daemon slayers make foe re-roll ward saves

Ungrim is a beast, whom if the rumors are right, I will always take.


No, slayers don't have staying power. But they are spiteful little maniacs who will carve you up and won't care if you gut them in the process. They sound great to me.


That unit will be near 500 points.

#111 the bearded one

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:19 PM

There are various ideas already suggested on this forum.

I think the best and simplest improvement is letting them always attack. Specifically, by rule, Slayer casualties are not removed until combat resolution is calculated. That at least gives them something. If you also give the characters automatic ward saves, you might see more slayers.


David was almost precisely correct, a year in advance ;)

#112 Durak

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:24 AM

A few questions on slayers for anyone who has the book:

 

* Are dragon slayers d3 wounds or just d3 wounds against monsters?

* Deathblow: Is it only against models in BtB contact? And if so, how does this work? 

 

Let's say that you have a unit of 40 slayers. You have 34 giant slayers. You go up against...40 white lions. 

 

The white lions strike first. They get 27 hits, followed by 18 wounds. For the slayers, do you get 18 deathblow attacks back? Or are you stuck with only the front rank of troll slayers, which reduces your return strikes to 7?

 

That's a pretty big difference in slayer effectiveness. Pretty much a difference between 8 dead elves or 3.

 

If the former...the unit will (statistically) do another 9 wounds with troll slayers and about 2 wounds with the giant slayers. For a grand total of 19 dead white lions. If the dwarfs charged, they'd even win combat, if not it'd be a draw.

 

If the latter...the unit would still do the 11 wounds back, but would tap out at 14 wounds. Meaning they'd lose combat, and in subsequent rounds would continue to lose. 

 

To me, slayers will only be able to go toe to toe with other combat units with everyone fighting before they die. Otherwise, the rule is neat, but not enough to really make them worth it given how many casualties they'll take. 

 

 

 



#113 GimlisBeard

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:40 AM

I'd love to see a Slayer throwing Catapult. Just imagine it!  :shock:



#114 Granitbeard

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:42 PM

A few questions on slayers for anyone who has the book:

 

* Are dragon slayers d3 wounds or just d3 wounds against monsters?

* Deathblow: Is it only against models in BtB contact? And if so, how does this work? 

 

Let's say that you have a unit of 40 slayers. You have 34 giant slayers. You go up against...40 white lions. 

 

The white lions strike first. They get 27 hits, followed by 18 wounds. For the slayers, do you get 18 deathblow attacks back? Or are you stuck with only the front rank of troll slayers, which reduces your return strikes to 7?

 

That's a pretty big difference in slayer effectiveness. Pretty much a difference between 8 dead elves or 3.

 

If the former...the unit will (statistically) do another 9 wounds with troll slayers and about 2 wounds with the giant slayers. For a grand total of 19 dead white lions. If the dwarfs charged, they'd even win combat, if not it'd be a draw.

 

If the latter...the unit would still do the 11 wounds back, but would tap out at 14 wounds. Meaning they'd lose combat, and in subsequent rounds would continue to lose. 

 

To me, slayers will only be able to go toe to toe with other combat units with everyone fighting before they die. Otherwise, the rule is neat, but not enough to really make them worth it given how many casualties they'll take. 

 

I started to think this too. I can't imagine that it would be worded poorly......

 

But it will at least need a FAQ, because even if worded pretty clear, I would think there will be those who bring this kind of thing up.

 

I Hope no matter what they get to attack. If they can get that Anvil armor buff, I might try a big unit out. if not I will only run small smash and die units.



#115 Lomack

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:12 AM

Are you always using great weapons in your wounding maths for the free hits?
I think it's meh
One in 4 attacks (deaths) will wound if using two hand weapons option.
Meh.
I wanted two auto hits per death !

#116 Scabby

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:32 AM

I think they finally fixed slayers. Deathblow, unit cap removed, runic banner, resolute, giant slayer runic weapons, and ancestral grudge for the win! You can VANGUARD slayers:) Shoot you could vanguard two units if you feel froggy. Deathblow needs a little clarifying(shocker) but that's about it. I do think slayer characters should've had heroic killing blow but that's about it.



#117 Deman38

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:54 AM

A few questions on slayers for anyone who has the book:

 

* Are dragon slayers d3 wounds or just d3 wounds against monsters?

* Deathblow: Is it only against models in BtB contact? And if so, how does this work? 

 

Let's say that you have a unit of 40 slayers. You have 34 giant slayers. You go up against...40 white lions. 

 

The white lions strike first. They get 27 hits, followed by 18 wounds. For the slayers, do you get 18 deathblow attacks back? Or are you stuck with only the front rank of troll slayers, which reduces your return strikes to 7?

 

That's a pretty big difference in slayer effectiveness. Pretty much a difference between 8 dead elves or 3.

 

If the former...the unit will (statistically) do another 9 wounds with troll slayers and about 2 wounds with the giant slayers. For a grand total of 19 dead white lions. If the dwarfs charged, they'd even win combat, if not it'd be a draw.

 

If the latter...the unit would still do the 11 wounds back, but would tap out at 14 wounds. Meaning they'd lose combat, and in subsequent rounds would continue to lose. 

 

To me, slayers will only be able to go toe to toe with other combat units with everyone fighting before they die. Otherwise, the rule is neat, but not enough to really make them worth it given how many casualties they'll take. 

 

Having a unit of 34 Giant Slayers ....alot of points. Just got the book tonight .
Dragon Slayer d3 vs Monsters
Daemon Slayer succesful ward saves made against his attacks must be re-rolled
Deathblow is made when model is reduced to 0 wounds from close combat and stomps but not "impact hits" and is made before being removed as a casualty
 



#118 Forsak3n_Slay3r

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 05:10 AM

I can't help but compare slayers to savage orcs since Vetock apparently wrote both books.

 

Savage Orc Big 'Uns with AHW are worth a dozen minus one with Slayers costing even more this addition then last from what rumors point to.

Savage Orcs have two attacks, plus frenzy, S5 in the first round of combat(regardless of who charged who) and are T4 with a 6+ ward save(characters can take an item to boost that to a 5+)....and they are core.

Slayers seem vastly over priced for what they get(plus the extremely vague rules apparently), no save of any kind, hatred is nice but all dwarfs can get that now, What reasons do we have to take slayers over our other special choices?

 

I've accepted that we are going to have a difficult time with this book at first, I just figured when I heard Vetock wrote it I'd finally be able to play with a strong slayer force(imagined them more like a stronger version of savage orcs due to being "special").

 

Did the stat lines change at all for Dragon or Daemon Slayers?



#119 BLOOD AXE

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:30 AM

A few questions on slayers for anyone who has the book:

 

* Are dragon slayers d3 wounds or just d3 wounds against monsters?

* Deathblow: Is it only against models in BtB contact? And if so, how does this work? 

 

Let's say that you have a unit of 40 slayers. You have 34 giant slayers. You go up against...40 white lions. 

 

The white lions strike first. They get 27 hits, followed by 18 wounds. For the slayers, do you get 18 deathblow attacks back? Or are you stuck with only the front rank of troll slayers, which reduces your return strikes to 7?

 

That's a pretty big difference in slayer effectiveness. Pretty much a difference between 8 dead elves or 3.

 

If the former...the unit will (statistically) do another 9 wounds with troll slayers and about 2 wounds with the giant slayers. For a grand total of 19 dead white lions. If the dwarfs charged, they'd even win combat, if not it'd be a draw.

 

If the latter...the unit would still do the 11 wounds back, but would tap out at 14 wounds. Meaning they'd lose combat, and in subsequent rounds would continue to lose. 

 

To me, slayers will only be able to go toe to toe with other combat units with everyone fighting before they die. Otherwise, the rule is neat, but not enough to really make them worth it given how many casualties they'll take. 

 

 

Why would you use that example? Did you figure out the points of that Giant Slayer unit? Something like 1,000 points? With White Lions maybe half that?  Try two units around the same points value. Or normal TrollSlayers- that's what most use.



#120 Durak

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:22 PM

First of all, typo. Should be 4 giant slayers, not 34. Secondly the matchup was just a random one to show how it'd work with different interpretations. But as it has been shown how all casualties are "base to base", its all moot. We haven't been screwed over and slayers are worth taking. :)





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