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How Can We Fix Slayers?

slayers new revamp

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#21 Drong The Baker

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:11 AM

I'm very much in favor of skirmisher slayers, myself.

 

Another idea is to have different kinds of slayers, each with their own speciality.

 

Skaven Slayer - Gain frenzy when in combat against units in Horde formation

Troll Slayer - Gain frenzy when in combat again monstrous infantry

Greenskin Slayer - Max unit size 20, skirmishers, devestating charge

 



#22 Tribun

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:42 AM

Ward save and hatred

or

make them a core choice!

#23 Bonecrusher

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:42 AM

1) Remove Unit Cap (not in a normal dwarf army, but in a slayer army yes)

2) Swiftstride when charging any Monster, Monstrous Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, or Monstrous beast. 

3) Dodge Save. Slayers don't invite death, they fight to win and they have to be good at what they do. You don't need runic tattoos for that. Make it a Dodge save a-la the Skaven. 6+ normally, 5+ with a Hero or Lord who purchases an upgrade. 

4) Deamon Slayers should have HKB. 

 

I quite like these changes, I would also say reduce the points they are not worth it. Dodge/Runic tattoo either was a 6+ ward save would do well. Remove Str cap, in older edditions where monsters could get up to T10 depends on the level of slayer their strength from slayer skill would be capped as such;

Troll slayer S7

Giant Slayer S8

Dragon Slayer S9

Daemon Slayer S10

 

I don't want them to have any saves, its just not fluffy, they want to die.  I like the idea of giving them Vanguard, so they get shot at for one less turn.  

Correction when taking the slayer oath, all a slayer is allowed is an axe and a mail shirt (if he has one) showing they are allowed some form of armour. I even have an unconverted GW model of a slayer with mail. Also slayers want to die to restore their honour by fighting a big nasty or a horde of enemies, not being on the recieving end of a goblin arrow.

 

I would also suggest;

-Incorporating the slayer army into the new book so that if you have a Daemon slayer (or perhaps Ungrim Ironfist) in the army you could take a slayer army (slayers become core, core units become special, special become rare, and rare's aren't allowed.)

 

-Bring back the slayer skills and doomseekers (due to step up rule they are much less of a threat)

 

-Make them skirmishers (unless a slayer army)



#24 Montegue

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

Slayers may wish to die, but they do not fight to lose. They bring their very best fight to the most horrifying enemy they can find. If they survive, it's because they are exceptional warriors, not because they got lucky. Mostly. However, they aren't just running themselves onto spear points. They don't have the armor most dwarfs take into battle, so they need to outfight their opponents to win, even if it means they don't meet death that day. 



#25 Lomack

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

my idea is to make a UNIT of slayers as scary as a whole UNIT of crazy homicidal maniacs should be: so: at about 13-16pts each:

 

Slayer Axes as currently

Slayer skill as currently

ASF

Slayers Doom - every wound suffered by a standard 1 wound slayer means the slayer lahses out as he dies in a final bid for honour - you score 2 automatic hits against any unit in base to base contact.

I wrote this up in a more fluffy way somewhere else.

 

NOW you have a unit that every enemy will want to avoid in hand to hand.

They still have their weakness to ranged fire though. and are slow like all dwarf units.

This is how it shoud be in my opinion - the game rules for the unit should reflect their fluff - and slayers have fluff as some of the most-wanted-to-avoid fighters in the whole of the warhammer world.

 

taking Ungrim as a King lets you take Slayers as Core might be too powerufl for a unit with the kind of rules though.

I suggest it lets you take 1 extra unit of slayers - not everyone is a slaye rin his Hold after all - it jsut has a few more slayers coming there.


Edited by Lomack, 28 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.


#26 Durak

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:48 AM

Glad to see some support for the skirmisher idea. :)

 

(1) Slayers are *not* super heroes. They are normal dwarfs who lost their honor. Slayerdom is not an honor. It is not glorious. It is a fate that all dwarfs fear. It is part of dwarven biology, and the shame never dies. They literally spend their entire lives ready to commit suicidie, and generally get alchohol and drug problems (stone and steel). None of this translates into fighting skills. Fluff wise, regular slayers should be no better fighters than your standard dwarf warrior.

 

(2) Dwarf armies fight in ranks because they drill non-stop. Every dwarf is a soldier. Slayers are wandering lunatics, intent on getting themselves killed. This is not the kind of dwarf who locks shoulders with his mate and waits for the musician to sound the order to march. They don't rally around the flag. They run forward by themselves, or in bands, to die first and to die messily. Being a skirmisher just *fits*. That, and it shows how far gone they are from dwarven society, as they are the only unit not to fight in ranks. (Even our scouts don't skirmish! This also makes a different role for slayers when compared to hammerers)

 

Issue

 

Warmachine protectors. New rules!

 

Look Snorri, Trolls!

Slayers must deploy as far as they can, given scenario deployment rules. Before the game starts, slayers automatically move forward 2d6''.

 

Deathwish

Slayers cannot move away from the enemy if an enemy unit/monster can be seen.

 

(try to make them war machine guards now!)

 

---------------------------------

 

Slayer Heroes

Now these guys *should* be combat monsters. They are dwarfs who failed at getting themselves killed in the world of warhammer. Now that is an achievment in being a badarse!

 

Dragon Slayer: Killing Blow that works against Monstrous Infantry

Daemon Slayer: Heroic Killing Blow

 

Heroes fixed. Really. No armor? No ward saves? Slap a few runes on them (ASF comes to mind), and stick them in a unit of skirmishers. Enemy monsters/monstrous infantry will have trouble avoiding them, because unlike slayers now, they will actually be mobile. At -1 to hit against shooting they'll have some protection...and the slayer heroes actually become scary. Even if they only have T5 to rely on.

 

Either that or bring back slayer skills. I loved those. :D 


Edited by Durak, 29 January 2013 - 05:49 AM.


#27 Captn Morgrim

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:44 AM

I wonder if some sort of poll would help here to see what rules our community finds most fitting for the Slayers. Bear in mind that several of these rules can and should be streamlined with 8th edition special rules to avoid rules cluttering and contradictions (I be lookin' at ye, Skaven 8th ed FAQ). My own suggestions are already added to this list (as C.M.)

For now, we have:

 

Role:

- Chaff (Small, agile, skirmishers)

- Shock Troops (large nigh unkillable combat blocks)

 

Movement:

- Skirmishers

- Vanguard (best adaption for "Look, Snorri, Trolls" in 8th)

- always move towards enemy

- Bonus on the charge

 

Combat:

- Hatred against all enemies

- Slayer Skill as now

- Slayer Skill without Str Cap (needed against some beasties)

- Slayer Axes as now

- Slayer Axes PLUS Slayer Skill (e.g. Slayer Skill Str Bonus +2, always strike last for using a greataxe) C.M.

- Killing Blow

- Heroic Killing Blow (Heroes only) OR a variation thereof (heroic killing blow for Daemonslayers, killing blow working against Monstrous units for Giantslayers, i.e. Monstrous Infantry, Cavalry AND beasts).

- Some last blow after dieing (could work like a stomp to be more streamlined with 8th rules)

- Always strike first (Lomack)

 

Heroic Death:

- Ward Save in general

- Ward Save vs Missiles

- Ward Save vs low Strength C.M.

- Ward save (any of the above) plus MR

- Warmaster Slayer Rule: Reverse VPs for Slayers. Enemies gain VPs for Slayer units still alive at the end of the battle, but Dwarves gain VPs for destroyed Slayer units C.M.

- Ability to take runic tatoos (Talisman Runes)


Edited by Captn Morgrim, 01 February 2013 - 11:42 AM.


#28 Braugi

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:36 PM

Honestly, I think in 8th edition (since Frenzy isn't as bad as it used to be, and we have high ld) Frenzy works pretty well for them.  Being able to kill tough opponents means Killing Blow is reasonable IMO as well (and takes the place of the Slayers ability to strike with greater strength), and Skirmish offers them some limited protection against normal shooting.  Slayer axes is still fine IMO.

 

I don't mind the idea of them getting a deathblow or something either...makes them pretty scary, which they should be, at least in close combat.

 

Even a 6+ WS vs. shooting wouldn't be bad...chalk it up to dodging ranged combat i.e. erratic movements.

 

Slayer heroes getting Heroic Killing blow is good too.

 

Honestly, there are a lot of ways to 'fix' slayers.  Making them really nasty in CC with likelihood that they'll be able to attack if engaged in CC, whether by ASF or a deathblow type ability might allow you to feild somewhat effective MSUs...



#29 marky

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:48 AM

Vanguard - makes perfect sense fluff + gameplay

Frenzy - after the unit suffers a casualty?? (crazy, angry, drunk, dwarfs with a deathwish watching their mates die).

At the end of any shooting or magic phase where slayers suffer a casualty to shooting or magic missile they must move D6 (if they make contact with the enemy they count as charging - no charge reaction allowed)

Giant slayers get killing blow

Dragon slayers get killing blow against infantry + ogre/troll sized foes

Daemon slayers get heroic killing blow

 

maybe remove the unit cap? DEFINETLY NO SAVE EVER IN COMBAT!.. i shouted that for a reason :)



#30 Lomack

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:13 AM

morgrim thansk for your summary could you add my suggestion though whcih is

 

Slayer Axes PLUS slayer skill PLUS last blow after dieing PLUS ASF ;)

 

cheers!

or at least ASF somewhere in your list (the slayers hurl themselves at the enemy with no regard for their own personal safety meaning they get a blow in)

 



#31 Captn Morgrim

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

Lomack,

 

yer combo can be found above - albeit broken into various parts. Nobody says you have to take either slayer axes/skill OR dieing blow. I added your Always strike first to the list, haven't seen that before or missed it. Methinks there should a downside to it, e.g.:

ASF either only on the charge or

ASF but suffer a certain or random ammount of automatic hits as enemy exploits the Slayers' reckless charge. (sounds like Flaggies, which is a no-go for Slayers)

... ASF plus rule X

 

Cheers,

Captn M

 

PS: After some deliberation, I 've decided to support the addition of Killing Blow as a Slayer rule the most. Aye even at the cost of loosing slayer skill.

 

Reason being, I wondered whether killing Killing Blow would make the slayer's great greatweapon obsolete, so I did some math. I assumed the following: If I have a 1in6 chance to autokill an enemy, I 'd want to throw as many dice at it as possible and go for additional handweapons. BUT greatweapons are still more reliable, as they got KB too!

 

Imagine an unit of 12+ Slayers (6 wide) fighting a bad match-up for them, meaning:  WS4+, T3/4, As1+ unit (e.g. Empire Knights, Chaos Knights, heck, even WS4 T3, AS2+ is the same for them)

Their 18 attacks with additional handweapons would generate only 1 KB at best: 9 hits, assuming 1 KB when rolling to wound for statiscally 3 (T4) or 4.5 (T3) wounds caused, 2 or 3.5 of which have to bypass the AS still, causing around .3 or .6 wounds (T4/3) in battle. Overall: 1.6 wounds caused.

On the other hand, their 12 greatweapon attacks would result in 5 wounds, 1KB, 4 AS of 4+ modified = 3 wounds after saves).

 

Overall, a fine solution would be to allow Dwarf Generals to choose between Slayer Skill or Killing Blow during army selection or set up. The former would be Monster hunters, the later would be Skaven Slayers, which would give our Slayers some much needed flexibility.


Edited by Captn Morgrim, 01 February 2013 - 12:09 PM.


#32 The Low King

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:51 PM

How about a rule that slayers gain swiftstride (or +D6 to charge distance) when charging/pursuing a unit with the fear or terror special rules?

 

That, Skirmishers and maybe some magic resistance would make them worth it....slayer characters having extra rules would also be cool.



#33 Alebelly_Cragfist

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:59 PM

Some kind of innate Challenge like the rune might be an interesting take on closing ranks with the enemy. 'Seek heroic Death' or 'Tempt Fate' special rule :) Could act as a great redirect and a fluffy way to get big gribblies away from everything else.



#34 Drong The Baker

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

C'mon guys, Slayers already have more unique special rules than most other units out there. I think that if we were to give them anything, it should be something that's already fully explained in the BRB. I also agree with Durak once again: These guys aren't superheroes, they're regular dwarfs with likely less than a few skirmishes under their belt, and the only ones that survive within the unit are likely ones that were already battle-hardened when they took the oath.

 

I think the Slayer special rule and Slayer axes already broadcast the uniqueness of the unit. Further giving them more special rules that aren't based off already existing special rules just go to further complicate a unit that, realisticly, shouldn't be a staple in every dwarfen army.

 

If we were to give them an additional special rule, one (Maybe two) of the following should suffice

  • Skirmishers (It would change their role, give us something we don't have as an army, and would help keep them alive longer until they reach combat. It also makes a lot of sense fluff wise)
  • Magic Resistance 1 (Runic tattoos. Daemon Slayers could have MR(2))
  • Devastating charge (I don't think this solves much, but if it was felt that they needed a boost in combat, that should be enough)
  • Gain Frenzy against or Hate Horde unit formations (A needed counter against hordes that can absorb the low number of attacks we can generaly dish out.

A further idea, to expand off of the last one (Gain bonus against Horde unit formations), we could then see a unit of Giant Slayer Skirmishers as a Rare choice: A unit consisting of the Giant Slayer Champions, with an additional bonus of gaining hate or frenzy against not only Horde unit formations, but monstrous infantry/cavalry


Edited by Drong The Baker, 01 February 2013 - 04:09 PM.


#35 The Low King

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:21 PM

Hatred against Fear/terror causers?



#36 Alebelly_Cragfist

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:28 PM

Not so keen on the idea of abilities against horde units, technically speaking, Slayers want to seek a solo glorious death against power houses, not skaven slaves or the like. Yeah, there's stories where loads of Slayers bundle into heaps of Marauders and the like, but these are huge, Dwarf v all battles where a Hold is at stake. Even that story is quite unfluffy. Slayers hate the company of other Dwarfs :P

 

It may just be nice to have a total rethink. Daemon Slayers are supposed to be so insane that they almost forget their shame and begin once again to tolerate Dwarf company. Would become a decent Killy Lord choice for us.



#37 Drong The Baker

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:10 PM

From what I've read, Slayers seek an honourable death in battle. To me, an honourable death isn't just a death at the hands of something thrice the power of a dwarf, but a death achieved attempting a fight that three dwarfs would have trouble with, be it seeking out a troll, or stopping a horde of skaven as they try to pass through a tunnel.

 

Tactically, this gives us a bit of an edge. People will start thinking twice before setting up in Horde formation if they see Slayers. Besides, giant horde units of skinks/goblins/skaven/zombies give us plenty of trouble, since we lack output volume. I think this helps a couple areas we're a little soft against.



#38 Lanceocletian

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:25 PM

One way to satisfy most of us would be to keep the slayers as they currently exist, reduce by one point and give them access to unit upgrades (runic banners, doomseekers in units, berserkers in unit, etc..) that allow them to get a ward save vs. shooting, devastating charge, rank killers, frenzy, etc.  It would allow us to specialize them for use in our armies.

 

Out of the summary list, my votes are for:

 

Role:

 

- Shock Troops (large nigh unkillable combat blocks)

 

 

Movement:

-Vanguard


 

Combat:


- Hatred against all enemies

 

- Slayer Axes as now

 

- Killing Blow


- Heroic Killing Blow (Heroes only) OR a variation thereof (heroic
killing blow for Daemonslayers, killing blow working against Monstrous
units for Giantslayers, i.e. Monstrous Infantry, Cavalry AND beasts).

 

 

Heroic Death:

- Ward Save in general

 

- Ability to take runic tatoos (Talisman Runes)

 

In essence, I am in the group that thinks cannons do a much better job at monster killers and hammerers take on most units better than slayers, so I want generic slayers to take on a different role such as combat shock troop.  Or, if they largely stay the same, then allow us to take units of 5 and skirmish so they can be our version of chaff. 



#39 Grim1

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:18 PM

i like slayers to go for the big stuff most of the time.... and only it time of great desperation should a general get "too tactical" with them and deny them the chance to "slay" the greatest of enemies.

the idea of the slayer oath is not suicide, but a glorious death or another glorious victory.

they are not worth taking at the moment, i think they should get buffed in some way...

i think that a sensible trade off would be some sort of psychology thing the "glorious death" to stop them being misused as anvil guard or stealth assaults.



#40 niddy

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:11 PM

I thought I would throw a few ideas on this one as I love the whole slayer fluff and the minis as well:-

 

ward save in the form of runic tattoos, maybe a 5+ just because I thought that there bodies would carry the grudges that made them slayers.

 

beserk charge, Ld roll to see if they can march then charge maybe. just means they are not so static and the opportunity to finally pay the slayer tax of detah at the biggest monster hand.

 

heroic death for every wound suffered maybe a 6+ chance of a further attack like the slayer threw his axe in a final chance to take the enemy with them.

 

just a wishlist maybe but I do live these guys and have 60 ready to go and would love not to take 20 off every turn. even if the fluff says that is what they are therefore. if  you could have 30 gotreks that would be cool.







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