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How Can We Fix Slayers?

slayers new revamp

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#1 Steel Rune

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

Hi, I recently bought a Dwarf army and love playing them. My problem is that they came with a unit of slayers, and despite how much I love the fluff and the models I would never field them. I've heard from to many separate sources how much they stink. They cost almost as much as hammerers, but have no armor save and no ward save. Combine that with crappy dwarf initiative and movement speed means they will either get shot to pieces from a distance our run down with a calvary charge. I just don't see the point. It's not like we need a unbreakable unit, a stubborn unit with 10 LD is just as good. Not to mention that Slayers can't kill monsters as efficiently as WM can. 

 

Is there a way to use slayers efficiently under the current rule set? If not how do you think they should be changed? 



#2 ThaneWill

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:19 PM

Well, personally I think it's very simple. Talismanic Tatoos / Grimnir chooses your Fate: 5+ Ward save for Slayers. That should make a lot of difference.

#3 David L

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:22 PM

There are various ideas already suggested on this forum.

 

I think the best and simplest improvement is letting them always attack.  Specifically, by rule, Slayer casualties are not removed until combat resolution is calculated.  That at least gives them something.  If you also give the characters automatic ward saves, you might see more slayers.



#4 Hortennse

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:22 PM

Hatred + Frenzy that can't be lost if they lose a combat

 

All other rules unchanged, keep price the same, maybe add 1 point to cost

 

Easy fix.



#5 Come2MeCaroline

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:08 PM

MATH HAMMER:
A Savage Orc costs 8 points with:
WS 3, S3, T4, I2, Ld7 (that stats that matter)
Big Uns add 1WS and S for a 2 point cost.
Extra Choppa costs 1 point.
The special rules that matter are Tattoos, Frenzy and Choppa. All that for the cost of 11 points.

These guys are considered the greatest Orcs and Goblins unit, ever. Seriously. The potential here lies in having a rather cheap, hard hitting unit, good stats overall and beastly in teh first round of combat with tons of WS4-S5 attacks.

I consider Slayers to be the savage Orcs of the Dwarf army.
They have lower S (but always wound on a 3+ more or less), have one less attack (2 if you decide to go with Great Weapons) and can never break from combat.

In my eyes all they need is the 30 Limit restriction lifted, maybe one more thing that adds some extra KAPOW in the early rounds of combat... Hatred has been suggested already.

Thoughts end here.

 


Edited by Come2MeCaroline, 26 January 2013 - 07:29 PM.


#6 S.O.F

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:17 PM

Well, personally I think it's very simple. Talismanic Tatoos / Grimnir chooses your Fate: 5+ Ward save for Slayers. That should make a lot of difference.

 


Yeah I've always thought something along the lines of 'Grimnir's Blessing' that grants a ward save verses missile and magical attacks would be the most suitable. If the unit is in combat and dieing they at least are serving their purpose to hold a tough enemy or perhaps slay a nasty monster, its the whole being ruined with ranged attacks that prevent them from even achieving this to a degree that is the problem.



#7 Steel Rune

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

MATH HAMMER:
A Savage Orc costs 8 points with:
WS 3, S3, T4, I2, Ld7 (that stats that matter)
Big Uns add 1WS and S for a 2 point cost.
Extra Choppa costs 1 point.
The special rules that matter are Tattoos, Frenzy and Choppa. All that for the cost of 11 points.

These guys are considered the greatest Orcs and Goblins unit, ever. Seriously. The potential here lies in having a rather cheap, hard hitting unit, good stats overall and beastly in teh first round of combat with tons of WS4-S5 attacks.

I consider Slayers to be the savage Orcs of the Dwarf army.
They have lower S (but always wound on a 3+ more or less), have one less attack (2 if you decide to go with Great Weapons) and can never break from combat.

In my eyes all they need is the 30 Limit restriction lifted, maybe one more thing that adds some extra KAPOW in the early rounds of combat... Hatred has been suggested already.

Thoughts end here.

 

 Yeah, I always thought they were a little expensive for what they do. I mean, its not like we actually need monsters slayers( again, Canons!). What we need is shock troops. Not that I support the idea of making them into a Chaff unit. Thats no Dwarfish at all. I would rather see them improved for the same price. 

 

On the same note, I don't think that removing the unit cape is necessary, that means you just get to pump more points into a unit that will still die quickly, even with a ward save. 

 

When I posted I wasn't thinking about Savage Orcs. I was mentally comparing slayers to WoC chosen. Which is what I think Slayers need to be able to handle. In my opinion Shock troops need to either decimate elites units like chosen or run off weaker units. I personally would trade the Slayer special rule for something else so they could cut through infantry. 


Edited by Steel Rune, 26 January 2013 - 10:51 PM.


#8 Come2MeCaroline

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:06 PM

When I posted I wasn't thinking about Savage Orcs. I was mentally comparing slayers to WoC chosen. Which is what I think Slayers need to be able to handle. In my opinion Shock troops need to either decimate elites units like chosen or run off weaker units. I personally would trade the Slayer special rule for something else so they could cut through infantry. 

 


Well, the "slayer" rule kind of revolves entirely about the full where a lone Dwarf fights tough monsters.
What you could change it into is some sort of unstoppable assault, like the Bone Giant has.

For every succesful wound a Slayer causes, he may make an additional attack. Change the Slayer rule tot hat one and keep the rest as it is.
This would allow them to still choose their weapon of choice, whether they be fightin' big monsters or infantry and allow them to dish out a lot more damage. Probably would be imbalanced as hell :D



#9 Durak

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:17 PM

Make them skirmishers. Unique roll in the army, harder to shoot, easier to get into combat. Problem solved.



#10 Ælfric of Kazad Thørn

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:24 PM

I think a ward sv. would be the best and simplest fix tbh. Maybe killing blow for the unit, and heroic killing blow for the characters. 

 

As it stands, atm I only use the Dragon Slayer, and shock horror :o , give him a cheap runic weapon. He is useful as a redirector and for tackling things like Spirit hosts/ Dogs etc. He's also good for a cheeky flank charge etc. 

 

To protect him a stick him near a unit carrying a banner with a MRo Grungni on it (5 ++ against shooting). Perhaps not the best use of 50 - 70 points but I kinda like having him in the army regardless :) 



#11 Steel Rune

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

"This would allow them to still choose their weapon of choice, whether they be fightin' big monsters or infantry and allow them to dish out a lot more damage. Probably would be imbalanced as hell :D"

 

That's a great idea!  It doesn't sound anymore imbalanced as those WoC chosen I mentioned earlier. Combine that, and a half decent ward save with the skirmishers rule sounds like a powerful combination. They could raise the points cost a little to balance it out. I would certainly use that unit. :)



#12 kera foehunter

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:42 AM

well the point  is you can only field a small amount of them. Since the high light of the slayer in the storm of Chaos. the slayer have been on a decilne.. verion 7 rules hurt us with the amount of slayer you can field.

I see a lot of short beards and have never had a chace to field up a good amount of slayers.

number = kills the only slayer math you need.

but doesn't comepair to fielding 30 slayer pirate

or 6 doomslayers

 the good old days

 

 


Edited by kera foehunter, 27 January 2013 - 03:44 AM.


#13 Tah Kazak Rik

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:52 AM

Make them skirmishers. Unique roll in the army, harder to shoot, easier to get into combat. Problem solved.

 

Agreed. And perhaps a 6+ ward against mundane attacks.



#14 Sturmbrow

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:56 AM

Their fluff says they shouldn't be in big regiments but instead small bands or just ones or twos

I'd say make them something like gobbo fanatics or dark elf assassins - hidden in a unit of regular Dawi until the enemy is in range then they explode out to attack in a devastating frenzy

Alternatively protect them from magical & missile fire with a wars save

Iirc I remember reading that the writers experimented with slayers as skirmishers but in typical fashion someone learned how to break this rule and used them to simply ring Warmachines - unbreakable skirmishers mean you'll never get to it

#15 Ælfric of Kazad Thørn

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

I don't like the idea of hiding them in units. They aren't meant to be subtle...just frenzied (they should have this surely?), ginger-haired nut cases. Nothing subtle about them. 



#16 David L

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:04 PM

I don't think Frenzy makes sense.  They are nut cases, but they aren't idiots.  They wouldn't go charging off after some random goblins - that wouldn't be worth their oath.



#17 Grim Stoki

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:16 PM

Just removing the unit cap would make them pretty deadly. They're a standard GW trooper with unbreakable and the ability to use 2 HW if you want, and only cost 1 more point! Deathstars of 50 slayers would be unstoppable, which is probably why it's a good thing the unit cap is in place. 



#18 Hortennse

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:05 PM

They don't have any armor, which is a huge disadvantage against shooting and against weak troops like elf spearmen and skaven and such.  That has to be considered when comparing them to normal warriors.  In my opinion they need at least one hefty advantage in addition to removing the cap to make them worth taking.  The other problem is that unbreakable isn't that great when you already have Hammerers who only have a 1/36 chance to break (if a BSB is there) and have one more strength and 1 more weapon skill as well.  Slayers just dont have a role in our army right now when you think about the other options, and removing the cap won't change that.



#19 Montegue

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

1) Remove Unit Cap

2) Swiftstride when charging any Monster, Monstrous Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, or Monstrous beast. 

3) Dodge Save. Slayers don't invite death, they fight to win and they have to be good at what they do. You don't need runic tattoos for that. Make it a Dodge save a-la the Skaven. 6+ normally, 5+ with a Hero or Lord who purchases an upgrade. 

4) Deamon Slayers should have HKB. 

 



#20 mojoslayer

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:04 PM

I don't want them to have any saves, its just not fluffy, they want to die.  I like the idea of giving them Vanguard, so they get shot at for one less turn.  

 

I have found them to be very useful by the way, in two ways.  In larger games I will take a unit and position it on a flank at an angle, so when they are charged, they open up a flank for my warriors.  They work great in this roll! They can also work great at taking out hydras and abombs if you give them a dragon slayer with two runes of speed and a rune of fire.  The dragon slayer will generally swing first and give a wound negating regen saves, then when the slayers go they eat through the monster.  

 

Also, you can take a small unit of 5 with a musician and a giant slayer and they make a great chaff unit, this also works well for hammerers.  

 

 







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