7 replies to this topic

[Kohr the Unstable]

Hi all! New beardling here. I'm considering taking part in a local tournament and I need help putting together a balanced, competitive list; if such a thing exists.

Here's what I've come up with so far. Comments and critiques appreciated!


2250 Pts - Dwarfs Roster

Basic forum rules - do not post in army builder format, and do not post individual item costs nor rules.
Post editted by David L

Thane (21#, 525 pts)
Master Rune of Swiftness Rune of Might
Master Rune of Gromril
20 Ironbreakers, 265 pts , FC
Rune of Battle Rune of Slowness

(Battle Standard Bearer)
Master Rune of Stromni Redbeard
20- Longbeards, FC, gw, shield

10 Dwarf Warriors, shield 90 pts

10 Quarrellers, gw, shield, musician
10 Quarrellers, gw, shield, musician, standard, rangers

Master Engineer, Brace of Pistols
1 Cannon, Rune of Forging
1 Bolt Thrower, Master Rune of Skewering + Rune of Burning
1 Grudge Thrower, Rune of Accuracy Rune of Penetrating

Runelord (4#, 415 pts)
1 Anvil of Doom
Master Rune of Balance Rune of Spellbreaking x2

----------------------

My deployment strategy was going to be:

• Anvil in far back
• War machines in the rear, on one flank.
• ME in middle of all war machines; each 3" away from him
• Warriors near WMs to act as interdiction unit
• Longbeards next to Warriors to give them panic protection + combat res bonus
• Quarrellers (non-Ranger) next to Longbeards, in front of...
• Ironbreakers next to Longbeards to anchor flank
• Ranger Quarrellers used to disrupt enemy deployment; can be deployed next to Ironbreakers to protect flank if practical

Feedback?

[David L]

Generally the units are too small, and you have too many points in upgrades, (including too many characters), and not enough guys. Size 20 is typically not a serious combat unit in 8th, especially when they aren't Stubborn. I would seriously expect your Longbeards to break in the first round of combat, and your Ironbreakers certainly might.
Stromni Redbeard is not remotely worth having, and the Ironbreaker banner is illegal.

[Kohr the Unstable]

My bad; sorry about the formatting goof. I've reviewed the rules, so hopefully I won't trip up again.

Okay, so any recommendations on how to adjust? I've got pretty much all models I'd need to field anything. It's a fairly loose tournament, so models don't have to *exactly* match up WYSIWYG, but close enough is good enough.

I've dropped the 2nd Quarreller unit, increased the Rangers to 15, increased both the Longbeards and the Ironbreakers to 25 models each. Switched the Rune of Slowness to the BSB banner to make it legal. I also dropped the ME and replaced him with an ENG on the BT. The general has an Oathstone as well. I'll post a new list if you think the extra ranks would be useful.

What makes the Stromni rune so bad? Would it not stack with the other banner bonuses?

You think the war machines over tricked? Forging is almost required for Cannons. Skewering + Burning on the BT sets up the Cannon against monsters. Penetrating + Accuracy makes the GT a serious threat.

Again keep in mind that I'm new with Dwarfs (only 4 games so far; none over 1000pts) and Warhammer in general, so I'm still learning. I appreciate any wisdom that can be offered.

Edited by Ghstgry, 01 July 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Griegsson]

I would recommend:

Drop the Thane. He doesn't do much for his points.

Take defensive runes on the BSB. Drop Stromni. It isn't worth the points. You will normally be either losing combat by a lot (In which case bodies matter for steadfast) or winning by a lot (in which case an extra pip of combat resolution won't do much. Your BSB is critical for the leadership test re-rolls - and you'd do well to try to keep him alive.

Smaller combat units of 20-25 are generally inferior to larger ones of 30-50, but can actually do quite well with the Anvil if you use it so set up combination charges and flank units.

Your cannon and GT are fine, but I'd try to take a second cannon over the BT. If you take the BT, keep it naked (or just burning) and next to your ME for a BS5 shot if he doesn;t use the re-roll on the GT.

Rune of slowness can be funny, but there are better runes for Ironbreakers (determination, Grungni etc.)

Points spent on Grungni are better than points spent on shields in general - remember that if you have GWs, you can't use the shields in combat.

With the anvil there are two main synergies, and you fall somewhere between the two. The first is a gunline, using wrath and ruin to slow the most powerful enemy unit whilst you shoot it. The second is a MSU or MMU tactical list, where you win through movement and unexpected charges. This latter is quite hard to do well.

[David L]

What makes the Stromni rune so bad? Would it not stack with the other banner bonuses?

Combat resolution is completely dominated by kills. Adding one CR will very rarely make any difference when kill counts can easily hit 10 on each side.
Similarly the oathstone is almost completely useless, because any enemy does not need to remove your rank bonus to break the unit ... they just need to produce more kills.

The cannon and Stone Thrower are equiped just fine. The extras are everywhere else: crossbow unit upgrades, expensive bolt thrower, shields everywhere, great weapons on Longbeards (Hammerers are cheaper and better), extra Thain, Master Engineer with only one stone thrower.

[Kohr the Unstable]

Okay, I've rebuilt the list like so:

Thane (MRoSwiftness, RoMight, MRoGromril) + OS
Ironbreakers x26, FC, RoSlowness

Thane BSB (MRoGrungni)
Longbeards x25, FC, GW

Dwarf Warriors x20, FC

Gyrocopter

Cannon, RoForging
Cannon, RoForging, RoBurning
Grudge Thrower, RoAccuracy, RoPenetrating

Runelord (MRoBalance, RoSpellbreaking x2)
Anvil of Doom

---------------

I kept the Thane in there as-is because I've found him to be quite helpful for tying up big bad enemy lords like Doombulls and WoC lords. If I keep the lord tied up with a very defensive Thane/Lord, then he's not killing my R&F guys and I have a better chance of winning CR. Though, I could get another 12 IBs for the same price as the Thane. Would that be better use of my points, since I can use the unit champion to answer challenges if needed? FYI, I know for a fact that there will be Beastlords, WoC, and High Elves in the tourney (they're friends of mine).

I picked IBs over Hammerers because while Stubborn is very useful, I figured that the 3+ AS would keep my numbers higher for the long-haul and I'd use the LBs as the striker unit. Though everywhere I see, people pimp the Stubborn as being worth more overall. I guess the question is whether I'd rather kill lots of the enemy (with GW) or take fewer wounds (with the 3+ AS vs. 5+)?

I was going with the RoSlow because I hoped that it would stall any HC or Minotaur or chariot charges. Combine that with the Anvil allowing me a move and I thought it'd seriously throw off an aggressive player's gameplan.

I dropped my Quarrellers in favor of the Gyro for flexibility and WM support. I figured I could keep it positioned to either slow down/redirect FC attacks vs. the WMs, or go WM hunting myself. Thoughts?

I'm debating dropping the 2nd Cannon and going OG for flank coverage. I lose the raw killing power, but probably buy another round or two of shooting. Thoughts?

Finally, I'm confused about something regarding WMs. Since all Dwarf WMs except the BT use indirect fire (i.e., no BS rolls), does LoS really matter? That is, I could drop a unit right in front of my GT without affecting its fire? I know if I'm on a hill, it doesn't matter, but on flat terrain I could see this being a problem. I know RAW it's not a problem, but neither is putting 2 War Hydras in a DE army. Yet the 2 hydra thing is quite frowned upon in general use (at least around here). Is there a generally-accepted view on the WM thing?

Thanks again for the help guys!

Edited by Ghstgry, 02 July 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[Kohr the Unstable]

Similarly the oathstone is almost completely useless, because any enemy does not need to remove your rank bonus to break the unit ... they just need to produce more kills.

The Oathstone also removes the flank/rear bonuses and allows me to retaliate with supporting attacks on all flanks, doesn't it? I agree that CR is hugely biased vs. kills. That said, "I swear too much"uming I'm making 10 WS5 Str4 attacks in return on any attacking unit, that'll net me more kills overall vs. not having the OS in there, wouldn't it? For example, if I were attacked head-on by an elite unit, then flanked by a bunch of WS3, Str3 infantry units or FC or something? The flanker would take more kills and add to the CR. Correct me if I'm just being naive here...

...great weapons on Longbeards (Hammerers are cheaper and better)...

I'm not sure I agree here. Yes, the LBs are more expensive, (324 vs. 306 for 22 models) and have identical stats. But I'd only get 1 more Hammerer for the price difference and while the Hammerers are Stubborn, that won't help the IBs. I thought having the LBs in the center of the fight (combined with the BSB) would help keep the IBs in the fight longer.

Additionally, with 23 Hammerers + 27 IBs I'm 3 pts shy of my Special limit while leaving me woefully short on Core. Keeping the LBs in there gives me the same punch while satisfying my ratios.

[David L]

I thought having the LBs in the center of the fight (combined with the BSB) would help keep the IBs in the fight longer.

How are the Longbeards more capable of helping another unit? The Old Grumblers rule is useless with a BSB around.
You may need the Longbeards to meet min core, but they worse than Hammerers except for 2% chance of failing a panic test.