24 replies to this topic

[Teugr Signhammer]

Hello to all. I'm new here and also with Warhammer. In two weeks will be my second fantasy battle. Me and my friends are going to have a 1000 points friendly tournament, and I was hoping for some advice against the mini horde of Skaven.

The Dwarfs:


Dragon slayer

Master Engineer

Thunderers x12

Troll Slayers x19
Musician
Standard bearer

Warriors x25
Musician
Standard bearer
Veteran
Great weapon
Rangers
Throwing Axe

Cannon
Rune of burning
Engineer, handgun

Bolt thrower

Total: 1000


The Skaven:

Warlock Engineer with Doom Rocket and he is lvl 1 wizard

24 Stormvermin with full command (engineer here)

30 Clanrats with full command, armed with spears and shields

30 Clanrats with full command, armed with hand weapon and shield, this unit has doom flayer weapon team

40 slaves, naked and wild!

5 jezzails

3 Rat Ogres with Master Bred Ogre and 2 packmasters

My tactics will be, that the rangers are placed behind some structure and wait there for the skaven to charge. They'll try to throw axes in my own turn and also in stand and shoot phase before melee combat. The Slayers will be aiding the rangers. Master engineer will joint the bolt thrower. Thunderers and warmachines are going to shoot the heavy hitters and ranged attackers.

What do you think ?

[Griegsson]

In general I think you should re-think your characters.

Against this (rather soft) list, you don't have to worry about winning combat, but you do need to break steadfast - therfore your own blocks should be as large as possible.

Rangers are a good idea - you will be able to pick a weak part of his line (e.g. jezzails) and get in. No need for throwing axes - you'll likely only be hitting on sixes, and frankly you want to be in combat with his squishy rats as soon as possible to have a chance of breaking steadfast before the end of the game. Take more bodies instead.

Slayers are OK here. The multiple attacks will help with killing slaves, and they will do OK against Rogres too. Personally i'd take more GW warriors instead for the extra armour, but the slayers will be fine. Bump them to 30 if you can, otherwise there's a chance they will die to massed S3 attacks.

On characters, a Thane with good armour and a GW (Gromril, resistance) is all you need. There are no high strength combat attacks in that skaven army, so he'll tank all day. I'd personally take MRoChallenge to make sure you set up an advantageous combat.

Take the Dragon slayer if you want (for the fun of it) - he's cheap at least, and gives you a bit of flexibility.

The ME does very little here apart form BS5 on the BT. given that the BT is lacking decent targets it isn't worth the points.

A cannon is fine (though take forging instead of the engineer and burning) - you can snipe the weapons teams and then kill Rogres, but after that you are short on targets. Personally I think a GT would be better. as it can really decimate skaven block. Though against the list you posted I'd be tempted to leave the warmachines behind and go pure combat.

So, without changing your list too much, I would suggest:

Thane (MroGromril, RoResistance, MRoChallenge) 140
Dragon Slayer 50
30 Rangers (GW, FC) 365
29 Troll Slayers 319
Cannon (Forging) 125

or similar (points may be slightly out)

[Teugr Signhammer]

In general I think you should re-think your characters.

Against this (rather soft) list, you don't have to worry about winning combat, but you do need to break steadfast - therfore your own blocks should be as large as possible.

Rangers are a good idea - you will be able to pick a weak part of his line (e.g. jezzails) and get in. No need for throwing axes - you'll likely only be hitting on sixes, and frankly you want to be in combat with his squishy rats as soon as possible to have a chance of breaking steadfast before the end of the game. Take more bodies instead.

Slayers are OK here. The multiple attacks will help with killing slaves, and they will do OK against Rogres too. Personally i'd take more GW warriors instead for the extra armour, but the slayers will be fine. Bump them to 30 if you can, otherwise there's a chance they will die to massed S3 attacks.

On characters, a Thane with good armour and a GW (Gromril, resistance) is all you need. There are no high strength combat attacks in that skaven army, so he'll tank all day. I'd personally take MRoChallenge to make sure you set up an advantageous combat.

Take the Dragon slayer if you want (for the fun of it) - he's cheap at least, and gives you a bit of flexibility.

The ME does very little here apart form BS5 on the BT. given that the BT is lacking decent targets it isn't worth the points.

A cannon is fine (though take forging instead of the engineer and burning) - you can snipe the weapons teams and then kill Rogres, but after that you are short on targets. Personally I think a GT would be better. as it can really decimate skaven block. Though against the list you posted I'd be tempted to leave the warmachines behind and go pure combat.

So, without changing your list too much, I would suggest:

Thane (MroGromril, RoResistance, MRoChallenge) 140
Dragon Slayer 50
30 Rangers (GW, FC) 365
29 Troll Slayers 319
Cannon (Forging) 125

or similar (points may be slightly out)

Thanks for the advice. At this point my problem is that I have bought only few troops. 20 Slayers, 30 Hammerers (converted from warriors, which I'll use as Rangers in the following game),10 Miners,16 Thunderers, Cannon, Bolt Thrower and Grudge Thrower. I'm also playing against Orcs 'n Goblins and High Elves in the tournament with the same armylist, though I don't know what kind of armylists they have.

Few questions emerged.

- If I use throwing axes, doesn't it mean, that I will need 5 make a hit from long range and 4 from stand and shoot ?
- Did you mean that Thane will go alone against the enemy ?
- I think I'll need the Rune of Burning on the Cannon because the Orcs will have Trolls with them.

[Griegsson]

Few questions emerged.

- If I use throwing axes, doesn't it mean, that I will need 5 make a hit from long range and 4 from stand and shoot ?
- Did you mean that Thane will go alone against the enemy ?
- I think I'll need the Rune of Burning on the Cannon because the Orcs will have Trolls with them.

Normally hitting on 4s. Long range is -1, Move and Fire is -1, Stand and shoot -1.

Your stand and shoot will also most likely be at longe range, so if you move and fire at long range that will be 6s, or if you stand and shoot at long range that will need 6s.

If you are playing agasinst other armies as well then some of my advice above is not valid.

Against high elves in particular, troll slayers are useless (shot by arrows, killed first, no advantage from WS4 and no high T targets).

In fact I'd be inclined to drop them and take missile troops instead. You'll also need magic defence - say a runesmith as general with one or two anti-magic runes.

I wasn't implying that the Thane should go it alone - he'd lose to static combat resolution (ranks+banner).

And, yes, if you are facing regeneration then forging+burning is a good combo (though high elf characters and dragon princes will have a 2+ ward due to dragon armour.

If you want an all-round list with what you've got, then:

Runesmith or Thane
30 Rangers
Thunderers (as many as you can fit)
Cannon (forging, burning)
GT (accuracy, penetrating, penetrating)

is the best I can do.

If you need to take the ME as a general (because you don't have the models), then take a naked BT as well - let the ME service both the GT and the BT.

Edited by Griegsson, 30 May 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[finn sourscowl]

sound advice from griegsson the other option would be to have the rangers as longbeards , they won`t panic from being shot at and are immune to terror , plus the higher weapon skill and strength , put the runesmith with the thunderers , and hope for some good shooting

[Teugr Signhammer]

Few questions emerged.

- If I use throwing axes, doesn't it mean, that I will need 5 make a hit from long range and 4 from stand and shoot ?
- Did you mean that Thane will go alone against the enemy ?
- I think I'll need the Rune of Burning on the Cannon because the Orcs will have Trolls with them.

Normally hitting on 4s. Long range is -1, Move and Fire is -1, Stand and shoot -1.

Your stand and shoot will also most likely be at longe range, so if you move and fire at long range that will be 6s, or if you stand and shoot at long range that will need 6s.

If you are playing agasinst other armies as well then some of my advice above is not valid.

Against high elves in particular, troll slayers are useless (shot by arrows, killed first, no advantage from WS4 and no high T targets).

In fact I'd be inclined to drop them and take missile troops instead. You'll also need magic defence - say a runesmith as general with one or two anti-magic runes.

I wasn't implying that the Thane should go it alone - he'd lose to static combat resolution (ranks+banner).

And, yes, if you are facing regeneration then forging+burning is a good combo (though high elf characters and dragon princes will have a 2+ ward due to dragon armour.

If you want an all-round list with what you've got, then:

Runesmith or Thane
30 Rangers
Thunderers (as many as you can fit)
Cannon (forging, burning)
GT (accuracy, penetrating, penetrating)

is the best I can do.

If you need to take the ME as a general (because you don't have the models), then take a naked BT as well - let the ME service both the GT and the BT.

Thanks again !

About the throwing axes. They have Quick to Shoot rule, which negates the penalty for standing and shooting and for move and fire. I didn't find exact rule, but if the attacker charges from greater distance than half of throwing axes range (6"), is there going to be a penalty for long range ? I think it would be logical for rangers to wait for the charger to come to close distance and then throw the axes, because Quick to Shoot rule also negates the rule that normally you cannot stand and shoot if the charger is closer than is't normal movement distance.

About the elves. I know they're going to have troops from two Island of Blood box. So, there may not be a dragon prince.

I guess I still have to have the slayers, because they are the only unit that I have painted ..Agains the elves, I think I have to get them behind some building or forest. But for the rest of the armylist I have to think how to change it, considering your advice.

[Tegnus Vagnarsson]

sound advice from griegsson the other option would be to have the rangers as longbeards , they won`t panic from being shot at and are immune to terror , plus the higher weapon skill and strength , put the runesmith with the thunderers , and hope for some good shooting

You need to be careful saying Longbeards are immune to Terror. They are not. They are only immune to the panic check that terror makes you take. Terror also causes fear, which the Longbeards are certainly not immune to.

Thunderers with shields would be pretty good against skaven and High Elves (non-elites).

Throwing axes still suffer penalties for long range and stand and shoot (which is done at maximum range i.e. 6", if the charging unit is further away.) They aren't a great choice, but you can build a list around them if you really wanted to. I don't think it's worth it though.

Edited by Tegnus Vagnarsson, 31 May 2012 - 06:35 AM.

[Griegsson]

Quick to fire just means they can always make a stand and shoot reaction, even if the enemy is closer than would normally allow it. You still apply the modifiers for move and fire and stand and shoot.

[Tegnus Vagnarsson]

It says in the rulebook under Quick to fire that it does not suffer move and fire penalties.

[Griegsson]

That's me told.

[Tegnus Vagnarsson]

That's me told.

I didn't mean it to come across as ill-mannered. My apologies.

[Griegsson]

No, no. I wasn't upset. I just got it wrong.

[Teugr Signhammer]

Because I also misread the Quick to Shoot rule, I decided to abandon the rangers. Here's my modified list.


Dragon slayer 50 (goes with the slayer unit)

Runesmith (goes with the warrior unit)
Shield
Master rune of Balance
126

19 Troll Slayers
Musician
Standard bearer
227

29 Warriors
Musician
Standard bearer
Veteran
Great weapon
325

Cannon
Rune of Forging
Rune of burning
130

Grudge Thrower
Rune of Accuracy
2x Rune of Penetration
155

Total: 999

edit: removed the exact points

Edited by Teugamo, 01 June 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[Tegnus Vagnarsson]

I like your list, but one of the Forum rules is not to post exact point costs. Instead you should post a sub-total for each unit. Maybe you should go back and edit your post

Oh, there is one thing. In 1000 points your GT will most likely not do much. But when it does, it should devastate your enemies. It's up to you if you're willing to take that gamble.

Edited by Tegnus Vagnarsson, 01 June 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[Goldo]

Nice list. You could however give the Runesmith a RoStone (for a 2+ asmor save) and replace the GT with an Organ Gun.
This would leave you 31 points to spare on sth else (like 3 more slayers or warriors.)

Edited by Goldo, 01 June 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Teugr Signhammer]

To Tegnus: Everything is gamble in the world of dice ..If I remove the GT, I could have 11 Thunderers instead or two BT:s. Sadly I only have one BT figure

To Goldo: I don't have an Organ Gun at the moment, so I think Runesmith has to rely on shield

[Goldo]

Meh! I am sure your oponent wont mind 1004 points instead of 1000

[Tegnus Vagnarsson]

Do you have a second cannon? I use 2 cannons instead of a GT at 1500 points and I've never looked back. I think you'd find they will work better at 1000 points too. But like I said, it's up to you

[Teugr Signhammer]

Do you have a second cannon? I use 2 cannons instead of a GT at 1500 points and I've never looked back. I think you'd find they will work better at 1000 points too. But like I said, it's up to you

I only have one cannon. Surely will buy more in the future, but I don't think a second cannon will make it to next friday, because of my monetary situation

[Tegnus Vagnarsson]

Do you have a second cannon? I use 2 cannons instead of a GT at 1500 points and I've never looked back. I think you'd find they will work better at 1000 points too. But like I said, it's up to you

I only have one cannon. Surely will buy more in the future, but I don't think a second cannon will make it to next friday, because of my monetary situation

I feel ya man, I feel ya.