166 replies to this topic

[Theatralic]

Avatars of War started a fundraising Campaign for a possible Dwarf army. I think this could become awesome.

http://www.avatars-o...c.php?f=1&t=894

[Goldo]

I just read what they are planning to make and I think I got high just by doing so!
Seriously, I have stopped buying miniatures long ago to save money, but if they make all these things, then I'll buy 1 of each!
Not kidding! I'll start saving money from now!

Edited by Goldo, 28 May 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Alebelly_Cragfist]

It's like they've taken a lifelong Warhammer Dwarf fan and said "create a dwarf army concept" - so many of the details are straight out of GW. The drums on the drummer are near identical to the current range plastic drums, ancestor faces on everything, where's the originality? The illustrator may as well have taken the Dwarf Concept artwork GW created and add some dragon wings here and there. They've even got the engineer goggles...

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept artwork, but this is probably because I like GW Dwarfs

I would wholeheartedly back a new game with great rules and mini range, set in an engaging setting. But, make up your own distinctive spin on the races. If you need any influence for creative juices, go back to the original myths and start from scratch there.

Renaming GW races such as Skaven to 'Vermin Clan' isn't even trying. Great model again, but, please?! Great minis but patently trading off the GW audience.

This just smacks of lawsuit to me.

Edited by Alebelly_Cragfist, 28 May 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[ThaneWill]

Ah shush you 'ole grumbler! You could say that of almost all smaller companies!

I think AoW doesn't copy GW but improves it, this seems a great project and I aspect great results. Especially units of female dwarfs and improved hammerrers should be epic.....

[Alebelly_Cragfist]

OK, so, for the sake of argument...

Let's say a new film was released, SpaceWars, Episode 6, Return of the Gedi, with Gedi Knights and Dark Lords of the Soth, both with brightsabres using the Will in magical and mystical ways. Do you think there may be anyone to say "...erm, I think there's already been something similar before..."

[ThaneWill]

True, I'm still on AoW's side though. Nicer sculpts, less money, less FineCast, less greedy.

[kera foehunter]

I love this guy !! and i sent my money to support a fellow slayer
Well since he choosed us Berserker / slayers first as a army group

[Maxxev]

hmm, well I think they have asked too much to begin with, from the kickstarter projects I have seen they would have been better off asking for the funds for one unit and they streching to 2+ units should the fund raising have gone well.

I like AoW beserkers... but they don't go with GW figs and I already ahve a ton of those, I might replace my entire GW dwarf army if they looked really cool in the flesh, but i'd be hesitant to throw money at them before that.

RE the copywrite thing, I could be wrong but I think the same guy has done the concepts.. so is the company or his brain that has the problem with copywrite..? (i'm sure that there is somegthing in the law to protect images that the company (GW) have paid for). Eitherway, I wish them good luck but $20 is a lot of dough....

[the bearded one]

Even if there will be no funding through this campaign, the following mini's are already planned:

[PLANNED] Dwarf Warriors: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of regular Dwarf warriors armed with weapon & shield
[PLANNED] Dwarf Thunder Warriors: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf warriors armed with pistols
[PLANNED] Dwarf Iron Guard: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of elite armoured Dwarf warriors armed with hand weapon & shield.
[PLANNED] Dwarf King: Metal miniature
[PLANNED] Dwarf Doomcrushers: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of elite Dwarf warriors armed with two handed hammers.
[PLANNED] Living ancestor: Animated giant stone statue of a dwarf ancestor (WarCast)
[PLANNED] Dwarf Master Builder – Metal miniature
[PLANNED] Dwarf mortar and crew: 2 Dwarf warriors and mortar (WarCast)

This is going to become a very expansive range, a shame I wouldn't be able to use it at my local GW, but I can use it at the gaming table at home if they're cool. I'm interested in the warrior kit the most.

[Goldo]

I am interested in the mortar!
My chaos dwarfs are gonna love it!

[Passagier]

This may be utter nonsense but an independent retailer once told me that Games Workshop apparently has shares of AoW. I have no idea if this is true but it might explain the lack of lawsuits and such.

[Xandar]

[PLANNED] Dwarf Warriors: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of regular Dwarf warriors armed with weapon & shield
[PLANNED] Dwarf Thunder Warriors: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf warriors armed with pistols
[PLANNED] Dwarf Iron Guard: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of elite armoured Dwarf warriors armed with hand weapon & shield.
[PLANNED] Dwarf King: Metal miniature
[PLANNED] Dwarf Doomcrushers: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of elite Dwarf warriors armed with two handed hammers.
[PLANNED] Living ancestor: Animated giant stone statue of a dwarf ancestor (WarCast)
[PLANNED] Dwarf Master Builder – Metal miniature
[PLANNED] Dwarf mortar and crew: 2 Dwarf warriors and mortar (WarCast)

So it's 4 new units, one war machine, 2 characters and a living ancestor ! A very serious concurrent for GW !
I don't see how GW would attack them in justice, they have no rights on dwarfs. If AOW call his minis "Ironbreaker", "slayers" or "Anvil of doom", ok, there should be a way to win, but it's not the case.
Everyone is free to create his minis, even if they are very closed to the GW one.

Edited by Xandar, 29 May 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Alebelly_Cragfist]

No, that's not true.

If Ford released a car that looked exactly the same as a Volkswagon, VW would sue and win. Both are cars, neither has "rights on cars" but they do on styling and what constitutes a brand aesthetic.

Indeed, anyone can sculpt a Dwarf and label it as such. You can't copyright mythology that existed before copyright law was even a concept. But, you can sue competing companies that produce items that can be easily confused as a product from another manufacturer (at least outside of Chinese law).

Even the shape of the Coke bottle is copyrighted, it is seen as a distinguishing trademark of the company. Virgin Cola got into trouble when they tried to do their own curvy bottle that Coke deemed too similar to their own.

There's a reason bootleg items such as watches and handbags you can buy on holiday from markets can't be sold legitimately in shops. It's because they're illegal as they breach copyright.

Unless GW give their consent to AoW to use their IP under license, they're risking a huge lawsuit that will likely shut this project down.

The only way out of this is if AoW can legitimately argue that the new game IP is 100% their own. A new rule system is not a new IP though. AoW need to create their own gaming world and populate it with creatures unique to it, or at least base it on non-copyrighted material.

They haven't been. They've patently nicked GW's. I can only assume they got away with it because, initially, they were only creating hero models, which would not have risked a major impact onto GW's bottom line. What they are proposing now is completely different.

All the other manufacturers of Dwarfs have their own scale and styling, with the odd few 'Troll Slayer' exceptions that I believe can be argued as generic due to more than one IP refering to them.

Either that or AoW's lawyers are far better than GW's

Edited by Alebelly_Cragfist, 29 May 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[Bonecrusher]

I wouldn't have thought that AoW would have to create any world really, they can create a vague description of the various armies. True new units that are different from GW can help the differences, but Mantic do the same, their dwarf range in as much as what troops are armed with and the aspects of dwarfs is very similar to GW. Same as our dwarf king. As long as none of the names are the same and if a world is created the map is different, they could probably get away with it.
Interesting for those that were interesting in Rackham games, which had an army called Wolfen, that name was copywrited, which is why GW spell theirs Wulfen.

[Drakkol]

Don't forget Paniagua was a GW sculptor...

[Alebelly_Cragfist]

I've not forgotten that, but what he did whilst at GW was for them and ultimately owned by them. He could easily argue that his style of sculpting is his own, so all his Dwarfs will look the same. He'd be fine with that.

But, using GW iconography, as he does (it's not Viking runes or ancestor faces), means he is copying. Dwarf with axe, fine. No arguments. But Dwarf Master Builder that just so happens to look uncannily like an Engineer?! He's flying very close to the sun imo.

[Theatralic]

I agree with Alebelly, GW sued people in the past for that - and won. No necesarilly because they were allways right ( sometimes they where, if you have an protected IP/Trademark/Patent etc. you are peferctly within in your rights to protect that, thats bussiness!) but often because smaller companies cant afford to go to war with them.

Anyways I would like to see those models

[Khazadson]

I've not forgotten that, but what he did whilst at GW was for them and ultimately owned by them. He could easily argue that his style of sculpting is his own, so all his Dwarfs will look the same. He'd be fine with that.

But, using GW iconography, as he does (it's not Viking runes or ancestor faces), means he is copying. Dwarf with axe, fine. No arguments. But Dwarf Master Builder that just so happens to look uncannily like an Engineer?! He's flying very close to the sun imo.

I disagree.

They already have Berserkers (an actual norse unit by the way) which look uncannily like slayers. The thing is it's really hard to claim ownership of a particular style of Dwarfs. Dwarfs have existed in so many forms before GW got to them and to be honest I think GW be at more danger from Tolkien than AoW is from GW (and Tolkien didn't invent them either). Consider that GWs style of Dwarf is constantly changing, it's pretty hard to make a Dwarf that doesn't look like at least one GW figure. GW Dwarfs even had swords and wooden objects once upon a time. If GW can't define their own style then no one can be expected to avoid it.

Dwarfs in pretty much all incarnations are good builders and craftsmen. All the best gods have had their weapons crafted by Dwarfs. I think that he could claim as much inspiration from the old Norse mythology as he can from GW and you can't copyright mythology.

I understand where you are coming from, and I have often wondered how close he is getting to annoying GW. At the end of the day though, I think they're gonna struggle to do much about it. The iconography will be his biggest problem, if he has one at all. A "Master Buidler" is certainly not.

[Thane Morgran]

I find it faintly ironic that in a thread where someone has said "I like AoW beserkers... but they don't go with GW figs" without anyone questioning him, we are debating if AoW have come too close to GW's style.

Yes, they are undeniably similar to GW's dwarfs. But so too to Wizards of the Coast's dwarves, and WOW's (at least some of the concept art). And I suspect that's no accident, because that style of dwarf is very popular. Does the lack of originality devalue them for me? Nope, so long as I have nice models to paint I'll be happy. Of course that's personal taste, you're perfectly entitled to not like them, and I can understand your reasons even if I don't share them.

So long as they are different enough, they shouldn't run into legal issues, and how different that needs to be is often surprisingly small. I suspect AoW's lawyers have already been consulted.

[Alebelly_Cragfist]

Yes, there were indeed actual Berserkers from Scandanavia ('Bear Shirts'). But, Fabio gave them Mohawks, an Amercian Indian cultural addition. Coincidence? No, of course not. He wanted them to sell as GW swap outs and tap into their market.

I agree there have been numerous Dwarf character types. But GW have created such a strong archetype for what a Dwarf is, many people can't help but imagine a long bearded, fat bellied, axe wielder. Other than a diminutive height, Tolkien actually has a stark difference to Dwarf appearances - just look at the outcry the film the Hobbit has received due to "skinny dwarfs" - the descriptions for them came straight from his own notes.

Indeed, once again, you are correct that White/Brown/Black dwarfs from Norse mythology are metal workers. But, their appearance is very different to the far higher tech aesthetic of magnifying head binoculars! The concepts for the master Builders are directly interchangable with GWs master engineers, as is the "concept" for AoW's rune priest equivalents etc.