49 replies to this topic

[FullFatMayo]

Hi all

my dad has just started a ogre army with 12 ironguts and 4 leadbelchers. plus a few characters i think.

i haven't played dwarfs for a long time so need some advice to get back into the swing of things so i have a few tactics in mind please tell me if they will work and any other available tactics

1. firstly i think that i want to avoid combat at much as possible so i was going to take the rune of slowness and an anvil of doom to either stop him charging me by reducing his movement or guaranteeing i get into combat to stop receiving impact hits.

2. have heard that quarrellers are quite good with great weapons so should i take them or thunderers.

3. what artillery should i take. cannons are an obvious choice but any others.

4. would gyrocopters be useful to march block and get a few hits with a steam gun.

thanks everyone.

[David L]

2. have heard that quarrellers are quite good with great weapons so should i take them or thunderers.

Neither is really "good". Artillery is better for shooting damage than either. Some core shooters for taking out sabretusks could be a good idea, but artillery is better against a serious unit.

3. what artillery should i take. cannons are an obvious choice but any others.

Organ Guns are the most feared artillery we have.
Stone Throwers are great generally, but are not quite as good against Ogres as against normal sized infantry (or maybe they are, see second post below!). As you appear to be playing a relatively small game, you probably skip a Stone Thrower for now.
The Flame Cannon is almost entirely useless because of the errata. Bolt throwers are generally very unimpressive in 8th compared to a cannon, although taking one or two cheap bolt throwers can make sense.

4. would gyrocopters be useful to march block and get a few hits with a steam gun.

March blocking rarely works in 8th.
Gyro cannot march and shoot, and still uses partials, so the ability to hurt an ogre unit is minimal. It can be useful, but mainly for fleeing or suicidally blocking a charge.

[Wendersnaven]

Stone Throwers are great generally, but are not quite as good against Ogres as against normal sized infantry. As you appear to be playing a relatively small game, you probably skip a Stone Thrower for now.

I pretty much agree with 99% of David's posts. The suggestion of a cannon over GT in a small game is a good one, and I second the motion. In higher point games, however, there seems to be a lot of predudice against GTs where ogres and other multiwound models are concerned, but I'd like to counter argue it.

Against ogres I take dual GTs with an Engineer in between for safety. I have several battle reports that show how effective GTs are against ogre blocks. The guy under the hole is usually removed completely and then the wounds are distributed as shooting to remove another and typically have a extra wound or two. I do not see how this is different with shooting through their ranks with a cannon- given -that should the cannon not completely remove an ogre model, the ball stops.

I'm no mathmetician, but the casualty rate seems the same. The cannon merely has more potential depending on how deep their ranks are and considering the strength ten hit's awesomeness. If they have at least two ranks, the GT can hit nine ogres at a time, so eight wounds and a D6 to remove a model vs. the cannon ball's D6x3 or more with a chance of it stopping. Considering the D6 will only deliver a maximum three wounds per model the total pontential against a unit of ogres, three wide with at least two ranks, is: Cannon=9 wounds GT=11 wounds potential.

Obviously, I don't have all factors pitted against eachother and calculated; but I tend to do much better with twin GTs, as is evident in my battle reports.

Strategy! is also important. Those ogres are always sneaking Trollguts on to their units to get regeneration. That is why I tool up one GT with RoAccuracy, RoPenetration (+1S), and RoBurning. The second one is similar, but instead of flaming it has one more strength to deliver heavier death. The goal is to let them get the spell off if they won't be in combat that round, then hit them with the flaming GT to get rid of the regen and kill an ogre or two before delivering even more wounds off the higher strength GT.

If your cannons rebel against you like mine do, I can reccomend GTs despite the popular opinion and favor of cannon.

Edited by Wendersnaven, 24 May 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[The Low King]

Cannons arnt that good against monsterous infantry as they stop if they fail to kill a model. Grudge throwers are actually probably better.

Our BS shooting can put out the hurt on them though

[FullFatMayo]

thanks for all the help.
another thing i said i haven't played for a while so i'm afraid i don't knowhow the flame cannon has been hurt by the errata.
can anyone please explain

[The Low King]

They changed it so that it now has no range. Means you cant shoot things until they are right on top of you.

[FullFatMayo]

cheers for the info.

[FullFatMayo]

just been informed that the ogres i will be facing will have between 16 and 20 iron guts.
also thought about bolt throwers and having them in sheer numbers and if that would work.
because of the increased points would a anvil of doom work to slow him down while i get more shots on him

[Hortennse]

Ogres are easily the best army book released so far in 8th edition, nothing else comes close.

I spend way too much time playing against power gamer ogres in my area, and I wrote up a tactica from my experiences against them. Some disagree with it, but here's the link if you're interested.

http://www.bugmansbr...i-ogre-tactica/


Edit: Responding directly to your last question, yes take Anvil no questions asked if you know he is bringing Ironguts. Take minimum two cannons, two organ guns, bolt throwers or grudge throwers, and spend all your core points on great weapon crossbowmen. Slow it down every turn and shoot the heck out of it. My regular ogre opponent likes to brag about how his 24 Irongut + 2 Firebelly + BSB (spell reflecting banner hiding in the second rank due to cheesy ogre rank abuse) + Slaughtermaster unit is so unbeatable, and he's right in 99% of scenarios but I've never lost to it with dwarfs. Anvil is the key, and I am bringing it to all tournaments for the forseeable future as a big middle finger to all the guys that run death stars out there.

Edited by Hortennse, 24 May 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[David L]

however, there seems to be a lot of predudice against GTs where ogres and other multiwound models are concerned, but I'd like to counter argue it.

And you are right to do so! Your post prompted me to do some math. Okay, a lot of math.

Assuming a cannon line hits 3 ogres, I calculate its average damage as just 3.88 total wounds. Obvious it can do 9 wounds, but that only happens about 17% of the time. A strength 4 stone thrower, centered on 9 Ironguts, averages 5.42 total wounds (or 6.08 against bulls, because of the net 6+ armour save ironguts get). At strength 5, that increases to 7.42 wounds!!

The odds of a Stone Thrower with Accuracy hitting its target are 46%, accounting for misfires.
The odds of a cannon hitting 3 ogres is about 53%, by my horribly complicated math and assuming straight on. Certainly the cannon does significant damage when it only hits 2 ogres, but its total damage is not going to catch Strength 5 Stone Thrower.

[Durin the Young]

I would recommend two cannons and two organ guns, ogres have the excellent artillery so you will need them for counter battery fire, the organ guns will obliterate their chaff units and peel kills off the death star. You will need an anvil to slow the death star. Just remember to try and force a panic checks if you can but don't count on them. Two big blocks of infantry can take the irongut death star, one in front and one in the flank (preferably hammerers in front).

[The Low King]

Slayers can be very useful vs ogres as they will always wound on 4s and ogre shooting will ignore heavy armour anyway

[Tegnus Vagnarsson]

I would recommend two cannons and two organ guns, ogres have the excellent artillery so you will need them for counter battery fire, the organ guns will obliterate their chaff units and peel kills off the death star. You will need an anvil to slow the death star. Just remember to try and force a panic checks if you can but don't count on them. Two big blocks of infantry can take the irongut death star, one in front and one in the flank (preferably hammerers in front).

I agree. OG's are good against the (?) Stonehorn too (The one that takes half damage against multi-wound attacks).

[FullFatMayo]

thanks everyone for all the help

[Wendersnaven]

Thanks for crunching the math David. I have this instinctive observation thing installed into my brain in place of a logistics center that can never back itself up well when the numbers start fllying.

You are welcome F.F.Mayo, and may the force be with you as long as you shoot first like Han.

[Hortennse]

Always include the price of the units in your math though for determining the true efficiency.

Quoting myself from another thread, " One grudge thrower with rune of accuracy, 2 penetration, and an engineer is 170 points. 180 gets me 3 bolt throwers with engineers or 4 bolt throwers without."

It also buys 2 cannons, I very much prefer to go for volume of artillery over the power of the individual model, because of ogre speed.

Ogres move halfway across the neutral zone on the very first turn. Anvil does a great job of slowing a deathstar, but not all ogres go the death star rout and the anvil can misfire. I like to take a lot of cannons and bolt throwers because I can deploy them all over the place, and thus spread out my points concentration as a very effective means of points denial. You have no idea how hard a time ogres have killing 6 bolt throwers and 3 cannons (I have done this in a 2400 points game) if they're placed just right. And the bolt throwers are just awesome against those sabretusks and even gorgers, two things that would normally punnish a spread-out deployment. Ogres have very few units usually and I love to take advantage of that to limit his ability to rack up points over 6 turns.

Finally grudge throwers have a 12 inch minimum range, and Ogres get inside that range very quickly, especially gorgers and sabretusks which GT's are useless against. I am often able to pound ogre units who just ended a combat by wiping out my tarpit unit of slayers, or that took out another artillery piece and had to reform due to my deployment. That lack of minimum range is PRICELESS against ogres.

I am starting to realize people really dont like my dislike of grudge throwers against ogres, but I wish people would respond to my points. Grudge throwers are prohibitively expensive against ogres, they dont have nearly the effect they do against the smaller races. Honestly it's a moot point anyway since most games are played with all comers lists, and my all comers lists always include 2 grudge throwers. But that doesnt mean they are the best choice you can take if planning to face an ogre player.

Edited by Hortennse, 25 May 2012 - 08:56 PM.

[FullFatMayo]

I'm with you on this 1. i know statistically GT are meant to be better but i just don't see it working in game with on 1 powerful shot when a cannon can penetrate ranks. (kind of)

[Hortennse]

I'm with you on this 1. i know statistically GT are meant to be better but i just don't see it working in game with on 1 powerful shot when a cannon can penetrate ranks. (kind of)

Don't be misled by what I'm saying though. Grudge throwers are the best war machine we have against most races. I take 2 (1 with 2x pen and accuracy and 1 with 2x pen and 1x accuracy) whenever I go to any tournament. Ogres just happen to be the opponent they are worst against, due to their large base size and multiple wounds (which will OFTEN result in that "6 wound" roll you got on your center shot taking a single wound off an ogre that already had 2 on it). It can get pretty depressing how many wounds get wasted for multiple different reasons. But like other guys have said, theyre not bad against them, I just think tons of cannons and bolt throwers works a ton better due to cost and placement options they present.

[Thane Morgran]

...multiple wounds (which will OFTEN result in that "6 wound" roll you got on your center shot taking a single wound off an ogre that already had 2 on it). It can get pretty depressing how many wounds get wasted for multiple different reasons.

This struck me as odd when reading it, so I went and had a quick look in the rulebook. From looking at P45 of said book, I think I may have some good news for you. If a unit with more than 1 wound is hit by a multi wound weapon, you work out how many wounds are caused and then remove the appropriate number of models and carry over spare wounds. One of the key bits is that the number of wounds per hit is capped at the number on the profile, which isn't the same thing as the lowest number of wounds any model in the unit happens to have.

So if you hit a unit of 3 wound models which has already suffered 2 wounds with a single hit that deals 2 more wounds, it would (albeit rather perversly) kill one and one wound would be carried over to the unit.

Whilst I felt slightly rules-lawyery typing the above, I don't think I'd feel bad about arguing it to any opponent who tried to say that wherever the stone fell in the unit it happens to fall on the head of the only already injured ogre...

I'll agree that the cost for grudge throwers is high, more so than for cannons. But then if you start making that comparison, surely bolt throwers are better still than cannon? Whilst you do acknowledge the value of BTs, this would seem to make cannons an awkward compromise, being sub-optimal both in terms of absolute efficiency per machine and efficiency per point?

I'm not so convinced about the minimum range being restrictive, with ogre's speed surely they're unlikely to actually be entirely within 12" of your GT. After all, if they were close enough to get there, they were probably close enough to have charged?

GTs also benefit from more freedom in positioning, as you can easily fire them over your own units. You can trace LOS to the ogre on the far side of a dwarf far more easily than to the patch of ground just in front of him.

[Hortennse]

What do people think of this? Is it true that wounds would carry over? It would be paradise if it did, but I'm pretty sure that when they mean profile they mean the remaining wounds on the already wounded model.

edit: Im sorry man but I dont think youre right on that interpetation. It says clearly "Should the model do so (exceed its profile of wounds), it dies instantly and excess wounds are wasted."

This definitely implies that once that model dies, any excess wounds are wasted.

Edited by Hortennse, 26 May 2012 - 01:38 AM.