[ross muldoon]

Hello all
Ok ive making a few changes in my army list and could do with a few questions answered before i finalize my army list

1 Can a runesmith join a warmachine?

2 If YES and the runesmith can join the warmachine and all the crew get killed and the runesmith is still alive can he still use the gunner pride rule?

2a (as above)if i have valiant rune on the warmachine can he still be unbreakable?

3 Again on the subject all the crew are dead but the runesmith still manning it do i stop my opponent getting victory points for it?

I could do with your help
Thanks ross muldoon

[Thoin Ironfist]

Yes, Runesmiths can join war machines. However, They are not allowed to use the gunners pride rules. I'm also pretty sure that once the entire crew (not including the Runesmith) is killed, the war machine is considered destroyed.

[David L]

ross muldoon, on 11 March 2010 - 11:39 AM, said:

1 Can a runesmith join a warmachine?

Certainly. War machines have no special rules about characters joining them or not.

ross muldoon, on 11 March 2010 - 11:39 AM, said:

2 If YES and the runesmith can join the warmachine and all the crew get killed and the runesmith is still alive can he still use the gunner pride rule?

No. That rule is for "crew". Joining a war machine does not make you "crew". See the Master Engineer rules.

ross muldoon, on 11 March 2010 - 11:39 AM, said:

2a (as above)if i have valiant rune on the warmachine can he still be unbreakable?

Now the runesmith cannot join it, because characters cannot join unbreakable units unless they are also unbreakable. A Master Engineer can join it because the rune makes him unbreakable too since he is "crew", as above.

ross muldoon, on 11 March 2010 - 11:39 AM, said:

3 Again on the subject all the crew are dead but the runesmith still manning it do i stop my opponent getting victory points for it?

No, he is not crew.

[kgkid]

The RS can indeed join the machine, but he is not part of the crew in any way... just as lord in a unit of hammerers is not a hammerer.

While the crew lives the whole unit is stubborn. Once the crew is killed, the RS does not benefit from any rules.

Also, the RS does not "man" the machine it joins, so the points go to the opponent.

If the crew is killed in CC, once the crew is gone, the machine is gone as well. If the crew died from shooting, or magic, then machine stays, and could be crewed by another crew, or a ME.

Everything said here stands for RS, Thanes, lords, and runelords. The ME is another story... He can "man" the machine, and "act as a crew", with all the benefits and consequences...

Cheers!

[ross muldoon]

AaaHh Bugger
im glad thats straighted that out for me before i made a huge mistake,ill proberly go for a ME in there in the end(with valiant rune)
thanks everyone for answering my few questions drinks are on me

muldoon

[Seefood]

Just for the record. No character can join a unit that is unbreakable BUT he can be deployed with it. So if a Runesmith can be deployed with a warmachine he could benefit from the unbreakable rule from that rune.

[Ok Okri]

I disagree. Characters are deployed separately to war machines, just as they are deployed separately from units.

[David L]

Seefood, on 12 March 2010 - 08:15 AM, said:

Just for the record. No character can join a unit that is unbreakable BUT he can be deployed with it. So if a Runesmith can be deployed with a warmachine he could benefit from the unbreakable rule from that rune.

There is no basis for that statement. Joining a unit, by any means, has to be the same as being in the unit, by any means, or things are super messed up. In general, if you are mixing break test rules, you are doing something wrong.

[Seefood]

David L, on 12 March 2010 - 05:18 PM, said:

Seefood, on 12 March 2010 - 08:15 AM, said:

Just for the record. No character can join a unit that is unbreakable BUT he can be deployed with it. So if a Runesmith can be deployed with a warmachine he could benefit from the unbreakable rule from that rune.

There is no basis for that statement. Joining a unit, by any means, has to be the same as being in the unit, by any means, or things are super messed up. In general, if you are mixing break test rules, you are doing something wrong.

This is how it works. I`ll use the skaven Screaming Bell as my example as in the new Skaven erreta. When a Screaming bell joins a unit of stormvermin the unit becomes unbreakable and no characters can join this unit. However you can deploy a character in the unit with a screaming bell and he would benefit from the unbreakable rule. He could never leave the unit though.

Skaven FAQ from mar2010:
Q. Can I join other character to the units with the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace? They make their units unbreakable and non-Unbreakable characters cannot join Unbreakable units.

A. At deoloyment, characters can be deployed in the unit pushing the screaming bell and they will also become Unbreakable. The drawback to this is that they cannot leave the unit as long as the bell is still there. Once the game is started, no character can join the unit as long as the bell remains, as characters cannot join an Unbreakable unit.

Characters are not deployed separately to war machines or units. You can put them in the unit you want them in before the game and deploy them as one deployment in one go.

This post has been edited by Seefood: 13 March 2010 - 02:09 PM

[Bonecrusher]

Seefood, on 13 March 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

Characters are not deployed separately to war machines or units. You can put them in the unit you want them in before the game and deploy them as one deployment in one go.

The Valiant rune says that the warmachine crew are unbreakable, as well as any master engineer that joins it. This suggests that only the crew will be unbreakable and only master engineers can join it when its unbreakable. Though if you wanna play it as the runesmith can join an unbreakable unit as soon as the crew die he won't be unbreable cause he's not crew.

[Seefood]

Bonecrusher, on 14 March 2010 - 01:30 AM, said:

Seefood, on 13 March 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

Characters are not deployed separately to war machines or units. You can put them in the unit you want them in before the game and deploy them as one deployment in one go.

The Valiant rune says that the warmachine crew are unbreakable, as well as any master engineer that joins it. This suggests that only the crew will be unbreakable and only master engineers can join it when its unbreakable. Though if you wanna play it as the runesmith can join an unbreakable unit as soon as the crew die he won't be unbreable cause he's not crew.

Yeah, a runesmith would not be effected by the valiant rune. The rules clearly state crew and only the master engineer can act as warmachine crew. I was only making an example that characters can join unbreakable in some situations. Proving David L wrong.

[David L]

GW FAQs must be read as narrowly as possible or the rules interpretation is impossible. Trying to broaden FAQ answers results in contradictory rules.

Additionally, even reading that GW FAQ broadly, it is not applicable to the Valiant Rune situation. The Bell/Furnace makes its unit Unbreakable. A character that joins a unit is part of the unit. The Valiant Rune only makes "crew" unbreakable, and the Dwarf army book is very clear that "crew" is a special subset. Again, if you are mixing break test rules, you are clearly doing something wrong.

[kgkid]

Seefood, on 13 March 2010 - 02:57 PM, said:

Skaven FAQ from mar2010:
Q. Can I join other character to the units with the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace? They make their units unbreakable and non-Unbreakable characters cannot join Unbreakable units.

A. At deoloyment, characters can be deployed in the unit pushing the screaming bell and they will also become Unbreakable. The drawback to this is that they cannot leave the unit as long as the bell is still there. Once the game is started, no character can join the unit as long as the bell remains, as characters cannot join an Unbreakable unit.

I know this is in the official FAQ, but it only shows the (low) level of basic rules knowledge of current GW staff...

This is nonsense, as far as rules from BRB are considered. But, since it is in the FAQ, that is how it will be played...

Seefood, on 13 March 2010 - 02:57 PM, said:

Characters are not deployed separately to war machines or units. You can put them in the unit you want them in before the game and deploy them as one deployment in one go.

You can not deploy characters with the unit (exception are assassins, or something). You deploy units, until only scouts/miners and alike are left, and then you deploy characters, and then you deploy your scouts. You can put characters in the unit at the point of character deployment, but that is just the moment they join the unit... If things were as you and latest GW FAQ suggest, you could take a unit of Slayers and put a RS or a Thane in it "before deployment and deploy them as one deployment" "as long as they do not leave that unit while it is still unbreakable" ...

No way mate! That is just not working.

As far as ME joining a machine with Valiant rune, the wording of the rune is clear. ME can join the machine and would benefit from it. Other characters just have to settle for other units/machines...

This post has been edited by kgkid: 14 March 2010 - 07:52 PM

[Halbrad]

The skaven book is generally considered the worst book in a decade when it comes to clarity and consistency of rules and shouldn't be used to draw parallels. There was a pretty funny thread on TWF before the skaven FAQ was launched on how the issues with the "unbreakable-discrepancy" that the Bell/Furnace caused should be handled.