[LEN]

So I was playing against orcs recently and had some high elves included in my list as an allied contingent (aspect of a campaign).


Anyway, the orc player manages to get off Waaagh! which caused an orc unit to charge into the High Elf unit. I assumed that my elves would strike first due to having Always Strike FIrst and higher initiative. However, the orc player argued that as the specific wording of the spell is simply that they "strike first in the next phase of close combat," and not that they have the rule Always Strike First, the point of the spell is that the orcs trump all ASF regardless of comparative initiative.

I decided that his RAW interpretation of the spell was accurate, and since Orcs are already so weak in 7th Ed. it would be cruel to not let them have this one thing, even though the intent of the author was most likely for them to have ASF.

Thoughts anyone?

[Bonecrusher]

I would have thought that their rule saying they strike first matches the HE rule just different name, so then would go off I values.

[LEN]

Bonecrusher, on 17 February 2010 - 04:23 PM, said:

I would have thought that their rule saying they strike first matches the HE rule just different name, so then would go off I values.

Well, the problem is Always Strikes First is a clearly defined special rule of the Big Rule Book, unique to no one army. So since the FAQ about ASF canceling out and reverting to Initiative technically only applies to a unit benefitting specifically from ASF, it shouldn't apply to Waaagh! and Bash 'Em Lads; which state that the Orcs strike first, period.

Of course, its a shrewd interpretation, but I for one think Orcs could use a leg up. Who cares? lLet them hope desperately for the irresistable force on those spells, its the only they'll get off against most armies (Dwarfs especially).

[Halbrad]

I'd rather consider this an example of poor wording of a spell than of a good interpretation of RAW. As a neutral tournament organizer, I would rule that it counts as normal ASF and the orcs strike last. As a player faced with such a situation, I'd have pity on the Orcs for the sorry state they are in and let him have it.

[Bonecrusher]

LEN, on 17 February 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

Bonecrusher, on 17 February 2010 - 04:23 PM, said:

I would have thought that their rule saying they strike first matches the HE rule just different name, so then would go off I values.

Well, the problem is Always Strikes First is a clearly defined special rule of the Big Rule Book, unique to no one army. So since the FAQ about ASF canceling out and reverting to Initiative technically only applies to a unit benefitting specifically from ASF, it shouldn't apply to Waaagh! and Bash 'Em Lads; which state that the Orcs strike first, period.

Of course, its a shrewd interpretation, but I for one think Orcs could use a leg up. Who cares? lLet them hope desperately for the irresistable force on those spells, its the only they'll get off against most armies (Dwarfs especially).

But both rules say 'strikes first' and the elf rule states 'always strikes first' both give the strike first bonus and in FAQ and decriptions of items that give the abilities it tells you that if both characters/groups come to this junction it goes off the I value. Though does greave me because the HE rule really annoys me esp with GW weilding units, but those are the rules.

[icewolff]

Does it not say ;

All friendly units move 2D6" toward nearest enemy, counting as charging if they contact.

then it easy charge VS ASF , ASF wins.

but my orc and goblie armybook is at a friend of my so cannot look it up now.


from warhammer FAQ part2 febr 2009 ;

Q. if a High Elf model with an Initiative value of 6 and equipped with a Great Weapon is fighting against
an enemy model with the ASF rule, an Initiative of 4, and a hand weapon, who strikes first in the
combat?

A. When two models with the ASF rule are fighting, they will strike in descending Initiative order, rolling a dice in case of same Initiative. All other factors, such as charging, great weapons, etc., are ignored, because they have already been bypassed by the ASF rule.


But there is NO clear answer agaisnt the RAW reader of the rules, when it only says "strike first in next round of combat" it is not the same then "they gain for next round of cc ASF"

so it is unclear to me what is the exact ruling.

[H33D]

you only need exact wording if you are being a real pain IMO they get ASF next round if you ask me.

[Theo Frostbeard]

"Strikes first in the next round of combat" its totally clear to me, they do NOT gain the ASF rule, they simply strike before the opponent gets to attack. those are the rules. do not try to screw people over by changing the writing in the armybook, it clearly says that the orcs strike before the enemy.

if you ask me, the ASF rule is the dumbest one in the rulebook, and should be deleated. give elves an even higher initiative instead, like...8? 9? it would work so much better, and these confusions would be gone.

Theo

[H33D]

You think that if it was meant to overrule something it would specifically state that it would overrule ASF. Instead, they phrased it differently than specifically statings it gives them the ASF rule and now people will of course abuse it and claim that 'Strikes First' is more powerful than 'Always Strikes First'. If you and your opponent agree, more power to you! Unless you talk to the guy that wrote the book then I don't know how you will know how this ability is supposed to work vs ASF.

Also, High Elves are already squishy. Getting the charge off on them and striking first as well would be devastating. Their best defense (which they greatly need) is the ASF rule army-wide. Otherwise High Elf players would only bring cavalry and flyers.

[kgkid]

I've just read that rule, and it is obvious that the intent was to give the "strike first" to Orcs in the next round of CC. Since Elgi have their Always Strike first, it is clear, by the BRB, that the striking goes on initiative order, and in case of the same I value, it should be diced...

[Baardur]

Theo Frostbeard, on 19 February 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

"Strikes first in the next round of combat" its totally clear to me, they do NOT gain the ASF rule, they simply strike before the opponent gets to attack. those are the rules. do not try to screw people over by changing the writing in the armybook, it clearly says that the orcs strike before the enemy.

if you ask me, the ASF rule is the dumbest one in the rulebook, and should be deleated. give elves an even higher initiative instead, like...8? 9? it would work so much better, and these confusions would be gone.

Theo

agree. And great weapons should should be "strikes with -3 to I to a minimum of 1" I really think that I should play apart when resolving greatweapon attacks.

[Theo Frostbeard]

Baardur, on 27 February 2010 - 11:20 AM, said:

Theo Frostbeard, on 19 February 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

"Strikes first in the next round of combat" its totally clear to me, they do NOT gain the ASF rule, they simply strike before the opponent gets to attack. those are the rules. do not try to screw people over by changing the writing in the armybook, it clearly says that the orcs strike before the enemy.

if you ask me, the ASF rule is the dumbest one in the rulebook, and should be deleated. give elves an even higher initiative instead, like...8? 9? it would work so much better, and these confusions would be gone.

Theo

agree. And great weapons should should be "strikes with -3 to I to a minimum of 1" I really think that I should play apart when resolving greatweapon attacks.

Wow, somebody agreed with one of my statements!

Yeah...Strikes last/ first is not the best rules... always going by initiative is better IMHO.

And, weeeeell, the wording in the O&G book is rather poor overall, like in the spells and many magic items and special rules... like the fanatic rules, they are soo short compared with 6th edition, that they can be played all to heck, you can for example reform your NG unit into a 20 gobbo long string and release the fanatics from basically the middle of the table, and hit the enemies WMs and missile units. Seriously, the writer needs to go over the entire book looking for all the loopholes in there!

Theo

[KrysDagger]

Theo Frostbeard, on 27 February 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

you can for example reform your NG unit into a 20 gobbo long string and release the fanatics from basically the middle of the table, and hit the enemies WMs and missile units. Seriously, the writer needs to go over the entire book looking for all the loopholes in there!

Theo

How do you figure you can do this? When you reform a unit no model can move more than the base movement (4" for Gobos). The furthest a reform could push your unit forward is 4", the most you could move if you marched is 8". It would neve make sense to reform to try to launch fanatics out front. Now if someone was 8.5" to your flank and just out of range a reform might work to get you facing the right way and to pull of the launch, but what you describe is not possible and if it was done to you than pull out the quill and book of grudges because you here had ...

Krys

[Theo Frostbeard]

KrysDagger, on 02 March 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

Theo Frostbeard, on 27 February 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

you can for example reform your NG unit into a 20 gobbo long string and release the fanatics from basically the middle of the table, and hit the enemies WMs and missile units. Seriously, the writer needs to go over the entire book looking for all the loopholes in there!

Theo

How do you figure you can do this? When you reform a unit no model can move more than the base movement (4" for Gobos). The furthest a reform could push your unit forward is 4", the most you could move if you marched is 8". It would neve make sense to reform to try to launch fanatics out front. Now if someone was 8.5" to your flank and just out of range a reform might work to get you facing the right way and to pull of the launch, but what you describe is not possible and if it was done to you than pull out the quill and book of grudges because you here had ...

Krys

It works for units threatening to flankcharge you. In a reform, each gobbo can move eight inches, double their actual move, and you have to keep the center of the unit in the same place. If you have a ranked unit of 20 gobbos, 5x4, then you could reform into a single rank and get the right- or leftmost gobbo in the unit much closer to the enemy. the fanatics are then released. see Avians article on nightgoblin fanatics, the "reform launch". It has good diagrams and such too.

if you google "avian orc" and click the first hit, you come to his website, then click on "orcs & goblins tactics articles to the left, then click on "night goblin fanatics, Clever tips and dirty tricks for these ball-swinging loonies", It is under "Putting together and using an Orcs & Goblins army", close to the bottom.

Check it out!

Theo