[nemcc]

This last weekend there was a event at my local store where i played in a 3v3 2500pt each game. The object of the game was to destroy as many units as possible. Here is where the problem started. My side (me, high elves, lizardmen) got there early and got all our stuff out on the table. Then a couple of other guys nobody from the store knew came in and asked if we would play. No problem, untill i see them pull out 2 VC armies and a Dark elf army. Im already thinking thats not very sportsman like to bring VC to a game about wiping out units but i didnt want to cause problems so i didnt say anything. To save time the store guys said wed roll for set up then the other side would go. My side won the roll and elected to go first (to get the first turn). So we begin to set up our stuff, each taking roughly a third of the table. When we finish and the other team set u there armies i almost flipped. A VC guy and the DE player put ALL there stuff right across from me, Then to top it off the other VC guy sets up half his stuff on my side and puts his giant skeleton blocks in a refused flank so my allie cant help me out. I quietly asked the store manager if he could say something to them but he said that there was nothing to forbid it in the event rules. So I proceed to grin and bear it for 2 hours before my army is wiped out to a man and my allies havent even got into combat yet.

Has anyone ever encounterd this form of D-baggery and what do you think i should have done?

[Thoin Ironfist]

Some Warhammer players enjoy all aspects of the game, from playing to modeling and painting. Many Dwarf players fall into this category due to the fact that Dwarves have a strong presence in the fantasy realm and are admirable for many of their characteristics and values. Also, any players who prefer to play or only play an army that is not considered powerful or for that matter down right weak are obviously dedicated to that army for reasons other than being able to whoop up on every other army.

Others play for one reason... They like to win. At this point in time, if I see a young player with a Vampire or Daemon army that has new models and is mostly unpainted, I assume they are playing these armies to win at all costs. These types have invested a considerable amount of money in order to win. When a year passes and their army becomes weak, they will have to invest in the latest power army to keep playing, or they won't play at all. I should note that this makes all players with power armies look the same (while their armies are in the limelight that is), while some players who like Vampire and Daemon armies invested in them before the power creep. Now back to the win at all costs guys... No one likes playing these types of players. They are not there to enjoy the Warhammer experience. They are there to make themselves feel better about not having any skills or power in the real world.

At least that is how I look at it. Avoiding them should be easy if you only attend laid back game nights and similar events. Tournaments will obviously have the most win at all costs guys show up, so attending a tourney is a good way to run into these guys.

[chitto]

The ony thing that i have found that effects these players is target something that makes them think twice. I use Tomb Kings mostly so i generally dont go in to a battle expecting a win. When i do play a power gamer though i generally throw caution to the wind and do something to shake their confidence in their army. It doesnt always work but i have mad a few players think again about how awesome their list really is. In this instance though, i think that their tactics went beyond power gaming. I agree fully with Thorin about the younger players, but also they sometimes havent had the experience with the ways of other armies cause they are used to just winning. I have manage to massacre deamons with the TK just for the fact that younger player didnt know how to counter my tactics. Sometime though it is nice to see to killer armies head to head just to see who plays better.

[RedBeard.]

I just wouldnt play any of them again. And if they asked why i'd tell them exactly why(i'm slightly older tho and tend to speak my mind). If you dont want to be completely honest just politely decline and say you have been playing their army a lot lately and wanted to go against something different.

That or take a Thorek gunline and teach them a real lesson(pretent you havent read the FAQ)


Might seem like sour grapes to some but the point of playing this game is to have fun and what they did there certainly wont have made for a fun game. In proper tournaments i can understand a bit of beardyness tho.

This post has been edited by RedBeard.: 29 January 2010 - 10:08 AM

[Geir]

Im trying to understand this...

Your problem seems to be incompetent allys... High Elves and Lizardmen on your side and they couldnt crush the vampires/necromancers?

I would very much like to see the army list of espescially the HE...
Dwarf with theire natural resistance,high elves with theire magic and Lizards with theirs... This should not be a problem at all... And how the h.... is it that with the movement of HE they didnt get close enough to aid you??

Write a Battle repport on this game dude and Im sure you will get tactic tips til your eyes bleed

Cheers

[RedBeard.]

Geir does make a good point actually, i would have thought the high elves would have been able to cross fast enough to help out. Unless you were at the end of the table and the lizardmen were between you and the high elves.

[kgkid]

Refusing a flank is a perfectly legal tactics in any game. That is why you never set up models at random , but in predefined order (for that type of battle we usually place one unit each player from a team, then other team places one unit each player. and then we alternate. this is fair and time conserving.). Letting your opponent place a bunch of your troops before even starting deployment is cheating. There are scenarios with similar deployment rules, but counting the points in such a scenario calculates the disadvantage the team that deploys firs must face...

Also, even in tournaments, if I see a cheater across the table, or someone who brought the army designed to exploit the iffy rules, or holes in the army books, I just offer my hand, and I do not play with such an opponent. There are better things to do with 2 hours of ones life then to get annoyed by some cheating rat. The three of you could just think of a scenario and you could've played each other, leaving the 2xVC+DE to play by themselves. If they were not cheating, you could've win just to mke a point. With them cheating I'd just break off the game and play against my friends instead.

My gaming group plays a lot of big battles, with or without scenarios. They're a lot of fun, and often we do not even calculate the points, or we set some objectives that determine victory or defeat regardless of models or units destroyed. Cheating in a fun, friendly game is a crime that should be punished! Ignore such players, and that should be enough. If you feel the need to punish them more, wait for them in a dark alley and break their miniatures, and bones, burn their car .... spit in their drinks ... "I swear too much" in their room ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA .... I'm just joking, you do realize that ?

[Perv]

Am I the only one who would start throwing their VC models on the floor and start jumping on them? I havent read a rule that says you cant do that....

This post has been edited by Perv: 29 January 2010 - 04:37 PM

[Vonlop]

If you play Warhammer you shouldt have a problem playing two VC and one DE army.

If you are playing your personal take on WHF, you should make your opponents aware of that before the party starts.

If you where taken by surprise, I can understand your concerns, but be prepared next time and get some payback we dwarfs arnt those who take things sitting down

This post has been edited by Vonlop: 29 January 2010 - 05:00 PM

[Shelfunit]

RedBeard., on 29 January 2010 - 11:13 AM, said:

Geir does make a good point actually, i would have thought the high elves would have been able to cross fast enough to help out. Unless you were at the end of the table and the lizardmen were between you and the high elves.

Never trust an Elf to do anything properly...and lizardmen are just scaly Elves.

This post has been edited by Shelfunit: 29 January 2010 - 09:39 PM

[Thoin Ironfist]

Perv, on 29 January 2010 - 11:37 AM, said:

Am I the only one who would start throwing their VC models on the floor and start jumping on them? I havent read a rule that says you cant do that....

HA! You get an ale for that Perv! Let's go jump on some models! After a couple of ales of course... I'll have a Guinness, and another to keep the first one company.

[Durak]

So, let me get this straight. Three guys show up to a game and they have a strategy on how to win. And you have a problem with this because?

I've gotten flak before for using my dwarf army, and just about everyone would prefer to play against my Empire. I imagine this is how the VC and DE players feel. And if they are not bringing a cheesy list, then I'd be more than happy to play against them. Hell, even if they brought a cheesy list I'd still have a go at it. The problem as I see it is the scenario, which is stacked towards the VC. Given that, if you had a problem with it, I'd suggest changing the scenario to make it more even. Or consulting with your team to make a strategy. Or just have a good time.

[jayfuture187]

nemcc, on 28 January 2010 - 11:35 PM, said:

This last weekend there was a event at my local store where i played in a 3v3 2500pt each game. The object of the game was to destroy as many units as possible. Here is where the problem started. My side (me, high elves, lizardmen) got there early and got all our stuff out on the table. Then a couple of other guys nobody from the store knew came in and asked if we would play. No problem, untill i see them pull out 2 VC armies and a Dark elf army. Im already thinking thats not very sportsman like to bring VC to a game about wiping out units but i didnt want to cause problems so i didnt say anything. To save time the store guys said wed roll for set up then the other side would go. My side won the roll and elected to go first (to get the first turn). So we begin to set up our stuff, each taking roughly a third of the table. When we finish and the other team set u there armies i almost flipped. A VC guy and the DE player put ALL there stuff right across from me, Then to top it off the other VC guy sets up half his stuff on my side and puts his giant skeleton blocks in a refused flank so my allie cant help me out. I quietly asked the store manager if he could say something to them but he said that there was nothing to forbid it in the event rules. So I proceed to grin and bear it for 2 hours before my army is wiped out to a man and my allies havent even got into combat yet.

Has anyone ever encounterd this form of D-baggery and what do you think i should have done?

Felt rather flattered that they thought your army was more dangerous then either Elves or Lizardmen? and then jumped up and down on there models like Perv suggested while invoking the name of Grimmnir.

[H33D]

Yeah, sometimes you have to come up with house rules of some kind to keep real big d-bags from ruining a perfectly good game. Like if you use a method of deployment that lets a lizardmen player place all kinds of water features, or a wood elf player place all kinds of woods. Not cool. Random terrain generators and perhaps not deploying your entire side of the table before the enemy, who OF COURSE will refuse their flank in order to concentrate their assault on one enemy at a time. This is not clever tactics or a game-winning strategy on their part. You might as well play a 1000 point army against a 3000 point army and see how his clever tactics win him the game...

[David L]

Just saw this, and I really think the original poster is off base. I understand his perspective, but he needs to understand their perspective.

In this situation, my attitude matches Durak's:

Durak, on 05 February 2010 - 04:59 PM, said:

Three guys show up to a game and they have a strategy on how to win. And you have a problem with this because?

1) This was an EVENT at a local store. That means bringing in outside people. It also implies some sort of prize.
2) It was a TEAM event, with teams potentially set in advance. They seem to have organized their team and planned how to play the event as a team. It sounds like your team did not plan.
3) There were essentially no rules for the event. NO LIMITATIONS, no detailed rules, just kill more enemy units. When the rules for the event impose no limits, and give points just for killing, expect people to bring armies that match the rules. Which largely means min-maxed Daemons, Dark Elves, and Vampire Counts. The event concept is not a friendly one, so don't expect soft and friendly play.

These guys read the rules of the event, saw a way to win it, and brought armies and strategy to match. The three of you just showed up for the event, and didn't even coordinate among each other when you started playing (deployment), much less beforehand. You tried to play a team event as three separate armies that happened to have the same enemies. They played as one integrated force. They outplayed you so badly in the advance planning stage, you didn't really have a chance on the table.

Your negative experience is not the fault of the other players. It is the fault of the event organizer, or of your expectations of the event. A good event requires more work by the organizer than a GW store usually puts in.


EDIT: I've probably been on their side of things before. A couple times I've gone to a GW store event because I've read the rules, understand what they mean, and am confident I can outplay the likely opposition. I don't expect a big gaming challenge, but I might get lucky in that regard. In the worst case, it's probably a free box of something (prize) for several hours of low challenge gaming. Generally I play Warhammer for the challenge, but every once in a while something looks so easy that I cannot resist.

This post has been edited by David L: 08 February 2010 - 09:04 PM

[H33D]

I think your opponents can bring whatever army they want to an event. I just think the deployment rules for that event are absolutely retarded if it made you deploy your whole force before any enemies deployed. Good deployment is something Dwarves need

[Dirken Thorn]

Dig in and hold fast like a good dwarf or sacrifice a couple units and begin a fighting retreat (albeit rather slow).