Jump to content


Photo

Skaven... Discuss


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 Orcslicer

Orcslicer

    Dwarf King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,415 posts
Contributor

Posted 15 December 2009 - 10:40 AM

More of a request than anything else - I could't find a recent discussion via the search on what people's experiences are using/facing the new Skaven. A list of points that I'd like to hear about are:

A step in the right direction? What broken things have they fixed, what are the important changes?
Is the list too powerful, or more balanced now?
Any particularly good set ups?
Have steps been taken to mitigate the skaven shooty army of death?

I've been out the loop a while, but I'm thinking of getting back into gaming, and I've got an unfinished Skaven army which I'm considering painting up.

Only thing I've heard is Storm banner + that hidious rare thingy is a particularly powerful combo and is quickly being established as "Cheesy". Thoughts on this?

#2 Ebrick

Ebrick

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 458 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 10:48 AM

i didnt have a ton of experience against the old rats, but here are my key points to remember about the new ones.

1) the doomwheel is only a danger until it gets to you half of the board. until then, it's just as likely to blow up his whole army as it is to bother being a danger to us. NEVER melee with it, you will die. and your ancestors will feel the pain. a cannon'll take it out real easy, just shoot it well.

2) slaves dont just run anymore, they explode. yeah. if they run, they blow up and do i think d6 strikes to evertyhing in 3 inches or something. now, a bad rat player will block a ton of slaves togehter, so this could cause a huge chain reaction and take out all of his slaves. potentially.

3) more attacks is always better than harder attacks. i dont know if this was the case with the old horde army, but swing fast.

4) we dont have particular issues passing toughness tests, but beware the ... big... swinging... green ball thing... whatever it is, it has a cloud of poison that knocks off soldiers like crazy.

5) queek's only as scary as you think he is. dont let him intimidate you. accept challenges with champions, not thanes, etc.

hope it helped.

#3 Orcslicer

Orcslicer

    Dwarf King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,415 posts
Contributor

Posted 15 December 2009 - 12:09 PM

2) slaves dont just run anymore, they explode. yeah. if they run, they blow up and do i think d6 strikes to evertyhing in 3 inches or something. now, a bad rat player will block a ton of slaves togehter, so this could cause a huge chain reaction and take out all of his slaves. potentially.


Interesting point, and a useful tactic to watch out for. I think, though, even if lots of slave units were clumped together it would take a particularly lucky roll to get things going. To force a panic test, you'd need to kill at least 5 slaves in another unit to induce panic (assuming they're in a block of 20).

Second question on this: do the exploding slaves still cause panic as per a normal fleeing unit to other slaves?

Edited by Orcslicer, 15 December 2009 - 12:09 PM.


#4 Rojo

Rojo

    Dwarf Longbeard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 557 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 12:11 PM

One of the good things that I see with the new book is that many very different armies can be chosen from it and still be competitive. You could go multiple slave units and lots of shooting, combat based with stormvermin and plague monk units and Giant rats or swarms to flank charge and redirect respectitively. You could have a mostly rat army with swarms, giant rats, Rat Ogres and abominations. There are certainly many strong builds. You could potentially build a Dark Elf-like list (replace Hydra with Abomb, Chariots with Doom Wheel, Cold Ones with Rat Ogres, Black Guard with Plague Monks/Furnace, Shades with PCBs, Repeater Bolt Throwers with Jezzails - OK not exactly the same, but similar elements).

Downsides - there are just so many new/special rules. The FAQ will either be huge or fall really short of what people need to know to play with/against them with any certainty. The other downside that David L pointed out is the number of choices with 360 degree charges. As he said, it really reduces some of the tactics required to play WHF.

Edited by Rojo, 15 December 2009 - 12:46 PM.


#5 ross muldoon

ross muldoon

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 155 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 01:02 PM

Im hearing lots of plague furnaces gonna make a apearance on the boards esp with LOADS of plague monks with the furnace making them unbreakable!i think a lord with rune of might will see of the furnace making the unit "not"unbreakable then were laughing,my army being most close combat im fearing the skaven gunline?not yet to face skaven yet so unsure how ill cope, Apart from being a nasty new army they also look like aload of fun at the same time? the chain reaction of exploding slaves sounds hilirous :lol2:

#6 jayfuture187

jayfuture187

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 219 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 01:59 PM

The only Skaven shooting ive come up against since the new book came out is the warplightning cannon and the poisened wind mortar! The new template rules meant that two mortar weapon teams decimated my lords hammerers unit in two turns of shooting. and the warplightning cannon killed my runesmith with a very lucky shot! his shooting was more of a nuiscance then anything else the two mortar hits on my lords unit was lucky as he guessed long and had the luck of the scatter dice puting the template dead on the centre of the unit.

Edited by jayfuture187, 15 December 2009 - 02:05 PM.


#7 David L

David L

    White Dwarf

  • Brewery Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,189 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 02:49 PM

Firstly, the writing quality of the rules in the Skaven book is AWFUL. Absolutely loaded with unclear rules. Clearly worse than any book written recently, and potentially even worse than the Ogre Kingdoms book. The Doomwheel requires guessing on most aspects of how to play it. The book has tons and tons and tons of special of rules. We counted the other day, and were blown away by the sheer number of specialized misfire charts (or similar) in the book. I'm certain that number was over a dozen, maybe closer to two dozen. I can reliably answer almost any Warhammer rules question; to the point where locals don't contest anything I say; but I don't expect to remember the Skaven army book rules accurately. Way way way way too many of them.


I've now played the new Skaven 4 or 5 times, and watched a few other games. On paper and and on the table so far, the Skaven can beat up ranked infantry units with great reliability. Slaughter them even. But they do not do well against monsters. Actually very poor against monsters. With the possible exception of plague censor bearers (which have almost never made it into useful combats in games I've seen), the Skaven army is extremely dependent upon their specialized big models. Doomwheel, Abomination, Plague Furnace, weapons teams. The troops did not get upgraded in a useful fashion.

In 3 combats with Dwarfs against a Plague Furnace, the Furnace alone has killed 15+ Dwarfs each time, plus one or two Dwarf characters each time. This took many rounds of combat, but with just S6 on my characters, I could not kill the Furnace. The Skaven unit pushing the furnace also died every time, but not the Furnace itself. If I could kill the Furnace before combat with my Dwarf artillery, I was good. Otherwise, not so good.

The Abomination is an insanely powerful beast, but the locals have been choosing not to field it in order to experiment with other stuff. The Doomwheel is pretty nasty too, but not as grossly powerful.

The majority of Skaven close combat damage goes before normal attacks, so it doesn't matter who charges. Mainly Impact hits and Toughness tests. Like playing the annoying ASF High Elves, but even more annoying.

#8 jayfuture187

jayfuture187

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 219 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 06:05 PM

I saw a two plague Furnace army plow through a WOC cheese army like a hot knife through(Stilten) without even a whincePosted Image

#9 The Major

The Major

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:19 AM

Today I played in a tourney and my first game was against Chaos warriors. Solid victory.

The next two games were against Skaven and both of them I lost BIG TIME.

Both opponents used the "Storm Banner". Non BS using units must roll 4+ to be able to fire. If a shooting unit uses BS they fire at -2.

Totally shut down my shooting for a couple turns.

According to the Skaven codex it ends on a 4+ but it does not clearly state it is a one time use and can be used again and again.

Both players used it as a 1 time use because they said the non-english versions of the codex said that, but it still shut me down shooting wise and it cost me both games.

The Major

#10 Bonecrusher

Bonecrusher

    Kro'undi

  • Brewery Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,836 posts

Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:58 AM

Yes the storm banner in this eddition of the book doesn't state it is one use only, there have been discussions on whether its one use or not, I think people are waiting for the FAQ to come out to correct this, otherwise its a real pain.

#11 queek

queek

    Rules Rat

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,512 posts

Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:46 PM

5) queek's only as scary as you think he is. dont let him intimidate you. accept challenges with champions, not thanes, etc.



believe the hype.

#12 Orcslicer

Orcslicer

    Dwarf King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,415 posts
Contributor

Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:55 PM

Interesting point about the storm banner - all common sense dictates that it's a one use though. Why would you bother adding a rule for the spell to end each player turn on a 4+ if you could just reactivate it every skaven player turn?

Ok, a few more questions which might be because of rustyness:

1. Do Skaven weapon teams which are now allowed to stand and shoot have a 360 degree line of site? The rules say they may pivot (which doesn't count as movement, as the warpfire thrower and ratling gun are move or fire), but this could be read as only applying to shooting. Do they have a 90 degree frontal arc for charge reactions?

2. What happens if a doomwheel goes out of control and hits a friendly unit:
a) un-engaged?
B) in combat?

Common sense to me says that for a) if 25% casualties are caused then this will result in panic, but for B) these casualties will never result in panic because units in combat are automatically immune to panic. But will any "friendly" casualties count toward combat resolution?

3. Also on the point of the doomwheel, if you careen into a combat (via an out of control result) and hit both a friendly and enemy until on the side, do you split impact hits on both? What happens immediately after this is resolved? Does the doomwheel stay engaged because it is in contact with the enemy, or does it back up 1" because it hit a friendly unit?

As usual, muchos thanks for your thoughts :)

Edited by Orcslicer, 20 December 2009 - 02:58 PM.


#13 Relssum

Relssum

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 247 posts

Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:41 PM

1. Do Skaven weapon teams which are now allowed to stand and shoot have a 360 degree line of site? The rules say they may pivot (which doesn't count as movement, as the warpfire thrower and ratling gun are move or fire), but this could be read as only applying to shooting. Do they have a 90 degree frontal arc for charge reactions?

Based purely on intuition, I favor the 90 degree frontal arc for charge reactions.

2. What happens if a doomwheel goes out of control and hits a friendly unit:
a) un-engaged?
b} in combat?

Common sense to me says that for a) if 25% casualties are caused then this will result in panic, but for situation B these casualties will never result in panic because units in combat are automatically immune to panic. But will any "friendly" casualties count toward combat resolution?

I agree with your conclusions. In situation B though, I wouldn't count any of the causalities towards combat resolution. As the skaven book says, I would resolve the impact hits, move the doomwheel back an inch, and continue with gameplay.

3. Also on the point of the doomwheel, if you careen into a combat (via an out of control result) and hit both a friendly and enemy until on the side, do you split impact hits on both? What happens immediately after this is resolved? Does the doomwheel stay engaged because it is in contact with the enemy, or does it back up 1" because it hit a friendly unit?

In the errata there is a question regarding what happens when a chariot hits two enemy units at the same time. In that situation, the impact hits were distributed evenly, with the odd hit allocated by the player controlling the chariot. Using that ruling as a guide, I would split the impact hits in the above situation where the doomwheel hits a friendly unit and an enemy unit at the same time. I would leave the doomwheel in combat, and resolve all the impact hits during the combat phase.

#14 David L

David L

    White Dwarf

  • Brewery Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,189 posts

Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:20 PM

The Doomwheel rules are in need of a complete re-write. Almost everything about its movement is arguable.

#15 SuperArchMegalon

SuperArchMegalon

    Dwarf Hammerer

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 315 posts

Posted 21 December 2009 - 06:11 AM

The Storm Banner HAS to be one use only. The point was already made, why would they include the 4+ rule if it wasn't? Also, it got 25 points cheaper this edition, and it did the exact same thing last edition, but was one use only. I've also heard that the non-english versions of the book state one use only.

As for the weapon teams, common sense would dictate that it can only S&S in the 90 degree arc, but remember the uproar which ensued when they FAQ'd the Treeman's strangleroot attack to be able to S&S 360 degrees? Could be the same thing. Although, roots go in every direction - bullets in only one. Who knows...

#16 The Buoyancy of Water

The Buoyancy of Water

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 21 December 2009 - 04:01 PM

As a Skaven player I probably shouldn't mention this, but:

The Storm Banner only effects non-magical shooting that doesn't use BS. As such a runed cannon or grudge thrower (or anvil, I believe..?) is immune to it's effects. A runed bolt thrower is effected as normal though since it uses BS. Also note the the warpfire thrower, doomwheel and several other Skaven ranged weapons are therefore unaffected too...

Cheers,
Dave

#17 David L

David L

    White Dwarf

  • Brewery Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,189 posts

Posted 21 December 2009 - 09:58 PM

As a Skaven player I probably shouldn't mention this, ....
As such a runed cannon or grudge thrower is immune to it's effects.

Just as most reasonable players will play the Storm Banner as one use only, most reasonable players will play the Storm Banner with the same errata they issued years ago to remove that awful wording.

#18 canada steve

canada steve

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 26 December 2009 - 07:25 AM

Wow I watched my mates O&G army get creamed in 4 turns the other night. He had spell 13 cast 3 times against him and it worked all 3 times so he lost 3 units of orcs. The bell worked very well and managed to ground his flyer for three turns as well.

#19 canada steve

canada steve

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 06:56 PM

Took on 3000 points of Skaven this week, I lost by a marginal victory but killed his Grey Seer and left him with only 35% of his 244 troops left on the table. My Warriors took on three units at once and beat them all !!! BT's were great and shot his Grey Seer.

Take plenty of magic inc the Anvil if you can.

#20 The Major

The Major

    Young 'Un

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 11:35 PM

Is this a viable option to deal with the Storm Banner?

I have a BSB with the Master Rune of Valaya on the banner. It says, "Any spell targeted within 12" at the start of the Magic phase is dispelled automatically.

So, a Skaven player has activated his Storm banner which would effect a unit within 12", would it not then be dispelled?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users