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The Brotherhood Of Grimnir Vs The Order Of The Stone Wall


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#1 Dourin

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 09:14 AM

Recently, I've been looking through some old warhammer fluff, and my eye fell upon this little passage in Best of Warpstone, Volume 1:

QUOTE
Dwarf Templars:
Dwarfen nature is perfect for the militaristic traditions of honour that personify Templars. There are, however, few Orders within the Dwarf Kingdoms, and none outside of Imperial rule. This is due to the fact that Dwarf's military units and the main churches already exhibit the traits of Templars - there is nothing to distinguish this new 'type' of warrior from any other in Dwarf society. All are loyal to their gods, homeland, kin and king. There is thus little need for Templar organisations, and few seek to join. The sole exceptions are The Orders of the Stone Wall, The Axe, Stone, and Granite, and these do not really fit into the traditional human notion of Templars since they tend to owe fealty to the High King, rather than to priests. To a Dwarf though, there is little difference between King and priest. Both represent the traditions of their ancestors. That is why Dwarf political problems can become some messy - They are completely unexpected.


Next paragraph:

QUOTE

The Order of the Stone wall is for those who have been unsuccesfull in meeting their Troll/Giant Slaying vows - in other words, those who are still alive after years of adventuring. In game terms, the idea arose because of the large numbers of Slayers that seem to survuve. Dwarfs finding themselves unable to achieve their glorious atonement are faced with two options. Most head north to the Wastes, as Daemon Slayers, where death is certain; some, however, seek judgement from the Lawgivers in their holds. If they are deemed worthy through their actions as a Slayer, a codicil is added to their entry in the Book of Atonement , and they join the Order. The Order guarantees certain, heroic death. They are called the Stone Wall because they never retreat. In the face of a defeat, they will die to a Dwarf covering their retreating brethren, whilst in the tunnel fights of their holds, they will never give ground. In other situations, they are the suicide squad who carry out any and all tasks. Note that they are still not accepted into mainstream Dwarf society, but tolerated as those awaiting death in a neccesary cause.


And I was wondering what exactly the difference is between the Order of the Stone Wall and the Brotherhood of Grimnir. It seemed to me that they are the same, but Grugni knows why changed the name. Could any of the Loremasters like Eldacar shed some light on the subject?

cheers,

Dourin

Edited by Dourin, 17 October 2006 - 01:10 PM.


#2 Alfginnar Oakenshield

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 11:07 AM

They have probably just forgotten laugh.png

Actually I thought the Order of the Stone Wall was associated with Grungni and not Grimnir. According to S&S (I know this is to be taken with a grain of salt) it was founded in -4500 IC, during the first incursion of chaos, and embodies the virtues of steadfastness and determination, regardless of the odds. This does come along nicely with what you've read Dourin, about the slayers never retreating and dying covering their kinsmen, but if the order is associated with Grungni, it's not the same as the Brotherhood of Grimnir.

AO

Edited by Alfginnar Oakenshield, 17 October 2006 - 11:08 AM.


#3 Dourin

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 11:47 AM

I don't see how the Order of the Stone Wall could be connected to Grugni when it concers Slayers seeking atonement. I'd say that would by definition make it connected with Grimnir.

Do you a page number for that link in S&S, AO?

#4 Alfginnar Oakenshield

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 11:57 AM

Stone and Steel doesn't mention that the order evolves around slayers. The small paragraph is on page 90 in the book.

AO

#5 Dourin

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:11 PM

Hmm, darn. It indeed says 'Grungni' explicitely.

The third paragraph in Best of Warpstone does however say the following:

QUOTE
The Order of the Axe serves the political needs of the High King and the clerics of Grungni as a distincet military wing of the church. With the diverse spread of the Dwarf peoples, the Order is a useful reminder of the central structure of the ancient Empire of Karaz-Ankor, fragmented in the Elf-Dwarf War and its aftermath. Templars are known as Axes of Grungni, or simple as an Axe. The Order is distinct from the Cult of Grungni, and demans no religious obligations.


It seems that the people responsible for the WFRP 1st edition didn't even get their own work right. Well, that still leaves the Brotherhood vs Order discussion. Two accounts give a different story, so the issue still stands. In the first case, the Brotherhood isn't the Order since they are dedicated to two different Ancestor Gods. In the other case, Mr.Alfred Nunez misread the above bit and substituted 'Stone Wall' for 'Axe', and the possibility still exists that the Brotherhood is the Order. BTW, concerning the Brotherhood, is there a place or publication where I could find more information regarding them?

On a related note, the South 2 army during the War of Vengeance at asur.org was also called the Axes of Grungi. happy.png

#6 Captn Morgrim

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:33 PM

Very well, lads,

I finds this t' be the typical state o' comparing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Both be actually set in the same world, yet, their background and timelines do differ... I don't if any o' ye r'member the age-old debates on Dwarfs and Ageing. Many went by Stone & Steel yet, others much as meselves point'd out that there were other, albeit rare clues t' be found in the BRB o' 6th ed and the 4th/5th ed. armybook.

Unfortunately, while there was but a short while when Gav T. was bringin' old fluff in line with the new one, I 'm afraid he wasn't able t' weed out all . Mayhap it wasn't 'is intention at all, but I guess he too found Stone & Steel (an outsourced product when GW wanted to apease the few 'ardcore Roleplayer) wanting. At least, this theory is support'd by Gav's Grudgebearer which doesn't pay heed t' Stone and Steel a lot. I can't say fer sure, but there be no mention of Dwarven Orders or similar in Grudgebearer.

It's rather sad, that the rich background of the Warhammer World suffers from such lack of streamlining. It be mainly this way since WHFRP and WHFB went different routes in the past and noone seem'd t' care t' keep 'em intact. Best example was Karl Franz diein' in WHFRP and still bein' alive in WHFB's fluff.

Thus, I 'opes that I don't sound too much like Nick Huge, but methinks that while the dark gritty Warhammer Fantasy background appeals a lot t' many a player, delving deeper into it will turn up all those little inconsistencies which were accumulated all o'er the years o' neglect. On the other hand thsi happen'd with every fantasy setting, mostly RPGs, that saw a bit of evolution in game terms. Background gets re-written, other with new rules, but changin' these settings drastically or payin' no attention t' hwat 'as been done before does more damage than good.

So, all in all, while the Dwarven Templars sound fine t' me, I would take 'en with a large lump of Crystalline Salt (rather than just a grain). But the bit on the Brotherhood of the Stonewall could work, if those various tiny bits didn't actually disagree with each other. Indeed the Brotherhood of Grimnir could be that Order, as there is not much background information on 'em or the Doomseekers t' be found at all. I was about t' purchase the SOC book just fer that purpose, when I found this out - it sav'd me a lot of money in th' end...

Cheers!

Captn Morgrim

Edited by Captn Morgrim, 17 October 2006 - 01:42 PM.





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