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Empire Detachment Rules


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#1 Thunderer

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 12:57 AM

Gents,

Need some clarification on the Empire detachment rules. Today played a great 3K battle vs my good empire opponent and had tons of fun. However his dang detachments kept stealing all my static CR.

So here is the deal. When using the empire detachment rules do they get to counter charge my flank even if they are in my front arc?

Or is this only a flank attack when I charge them and they counter charge me?

On a side note but not the main part of this thread in my 3K battle today I took 2 OGs + Gyro. On my turn 1 I had killed most of his cavalry off with 2 Organ Gun shots. His pistolers took a little longer but I had a great game and pulled off a minor victory.

The play of the game happened when I received the charge from my opponents swordsmen who then flanked me with his free company, took another flank charge by another detachment and his semi dead general that I organ gunned off of his Gryphon (works great by the way).l He responded to my Lords charge with his sergeant or what ever is the swordsmen champion hit me twice but failed to wound. I responded with my general and did nothing back even though I hit him 3 of six swings (shield bearers). I lost because I had no static CR and he forces me to take a break test which I promptly roll an 11 to fail losing my hammerers and general.

So not the best day for me warhammer wise but I need to be educated on the old detachment rule because I think he might be playing it wrong. I would think that if they are in my front arc they would have to charge to it, but if I charge them then they can counter charge me in the flank.

I appreciate all the well thought out input in advance.

#2 silashand

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 01:24 AM

QUOTE(Thunderer)
So here is the deal. When using the empire detachment rules do they get to counter charge my flank even if they are in my front arc?


Yes. They may counter-charge your flank as long as they can draw LoS to it *and* they can also perform a supporting charge (i.e. when the parent unit charges) in the same manner even if they were originally in the front arc of the target unit. Very nice little ability IYAM. Ref: Empire Army Book, page 8-9.

Cheers, Gary

#3 Thunderer

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 01:33 AM

Thanks Silas. It was never an issue until today. I guess next time I will wade in with a supporting Dragon Slayer holding my flank while I carve up his main block. Most of the time I don't give the opponent a chance to get that many flank attacks on but it does happen seldomly.

Well as for the empire book I don't own it (Dwarfs (6 and 6.5), Orc and Goblin, Skaven, HE, sold my DE one). But I have a full assortment of other WHFB books (generals compendium, SofC, one of the annuals, etc). I guess next time I when I face empire I will just go 2 deep and 10 wide per formation and dare him to come for a flank by having 2 OGs guarding it. I think I could cover maybe 3' with ease with just troops and with my penchant for using slayers I generally don't care if I take a charge because I know their good until the last one drops...

#4 BLOOD AXE

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 04:01 AM

Those Empire detachments can be a real pain.
Shoot them up if possible. If they get below US5, then ignore them.

#5 Orcslicer

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 10:35 AM

One of the most useful empire units detachments. They are dirt cheap (5pts for free company, and they have 2 attacks each!), and are excellent march blockers, charge diverters, sacrificial units and flankers.

Very easy to rout though, but if your wasting ammo on them, then the more expensive units are getting through...

#6 Thunderer

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 01:41 PM

Well I normally shoot them pretty well but after taking a year off from standard dwarves I am getting back into them. Now if I was doing my slayers the Hewer would have eaten through their big units and then I wouldn's care about the detachments.

This was my second game after returing to the Standard Dwarf fold (but I still had 2 troll slayer units and a free ranging dragon slayer) so I was expecting a hiccup. I still won but I should have won big. I made a mistake or three but not many.

The highlight of the game was that I had one unit of troll slayers start at 16 and end at 16. Now that is an accomplishment to the old missile magnets.

#7 BLOOD AXE

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 03:09 PM

QUOTE(Orcslicer)
One of the most useful empire units detachments. They are dirt cheap (5pts for free company, and they have 2 attacks each!), and are excellent march blockers, charge diverters, sacrificial units and flankers.

Very easy to rout though, but if your wasting ammo on them, then the more expensive units are getting through...


I'm not worried about their "more expensive units". No Empire Soldier can beat a Dwarf Warrior on a one on one fight. Even their Swordsmen are going to have a very hard time with T4 and a 3+ save.
My priority targets are cavalry and then detachments. As long as its a front on fight I'm confident the Dwarf unit will come thru OK.

#8 Bjarne

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 03:33 PM

Empire detachment have never been a problem for me, have recently played 5 games against Empire. You can try to get a charge on a detachment before parent unit can charge you or you can use a Oathstone, both of them have worked out fine for me.

#9 queek

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 04:28 PM

QUOTE(Thunderer)
So here is the deal. When using the empire detachment rules do they get to counter charge my flank even if they are in my front arc?


yes they do. The only explicit exception to the zone rule in the game. (there's actually another, but its a Q&A issue.)

#10 Orcslicer

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 05:01 PM

QUOTE
I'm not worried about their \"more expensive units\". No Empire Soldier can beat a Dwarf Warrior on a one on one fight. Even their Swordsmen are going to have a very hard time with T4 and a 3+ save.
My priority targets are cavalry and then detachments. As long as its a front on fight I'm confident the Dwarf unit will come thru OK.


I was referring to cavalry BLOOD AXE. And don't underestimate manlings blood axe, they are the most versatile and adaptable army in WFB.

Many times opponents underestimate the stubborness of dwarf unit, or their sheer toughness. Equally they make the mistake of underestimating the basic empire troop. There are often many ways to make them a good match for dwarf units, even if in the long run one-on-one they will lose...

#11 BLOOD AXE

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 06:06 PM

I quite agree ORCSLICER. The Empire is very versatile. Neutralizing cavalry should be a priority.

#12 kaiserjez

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE(Thunderer)
The highlight of the game was that I had one unit of troll slayers start at 16 and end at 16. Now that is an accomplishment to the old missile magnets.


They should die from the shame! biggrin.gif

#13 Thunderer

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 12:12 AM

No it was all a matter of them terrorizing all the cavalry and missile troops on that side of the board. The opponent was too busy shooting my Thunderer and 3 war machines on that side of the table to focus on my slayers that were continually threatening all of his initiatives.

But they will die next time or will keep at it until the succeed.

#14 Daft

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 01:43 AM

Ok, so what do you do if the empire guy charges the central of 3 shoulder to shoulder dwarf blocks with the parent unit. He has the movement available for the detachment to reach, but the unit will not fit in the gap between units. Is he stuck without the support, or do the detachments plow into one of the other dwarf units, or do you need to make room for the detachment on your flank?

#15 Thunderer

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 01:57 AM

Well they can't get into the flanks thats for darn sure so he can crash on my wall of dwarven iron and the meat grinder of my slayers swinging two weapons and not going anywhere any time soon (Insert evil grin).

I think at this point the 1" rule would drag the entire line into combat as his detachments tried to complete their charge.

But the intelligent opponet would just declare charges in sequence starting with his detachments as soon as he noticed that he can't use those rules. I would think that the same thing would apply if I have my flank anchored against one unit and the other protected ny difficult terrain (woods). But I know Silas or Queek will chime in.

The only empire I am playing is Imperial Guard but in 40-K... stupid Chimera model has like 100 pieces. Glad I finally have a sprue cutter.

#16 BLOOD AXE

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 05:14 AM

The Oathstone could come in handy vs. Empire detachments. Bait him with a solid Dwarf unit like LB or IB. Come right at the parent unit,with one or two detachments. Let him charge then set the stone. With your superior T/WS,armor and +4 CR you should win easily. Those extra enemy models on your flanks should help your CR,not his.You should kill several.Keep a Gyro nearby to run them down.

#17 TakedaShingen

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 05:26 AM

against empire i always hit the detachments asap. sometimes even before his cavaley, depending on the deployment etc. that rule is the best thing going for the empire army and makes it deadly.

the empire army is certainly THE generals army and i am sure i will graduate "up" to it in the next few years (once they re-do the models i shouldbe able to buy up an old army relatively cheaply - miser). haha.

i think an oathstone will "work" but i still cant condone the idea of leaving a hero stranded for the course of a game.

oathstone no
kill detachments to below US5 asap - 'yes'.

#18 Thunderer

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 11:18 AM

I'll do that next time. My problem this time was he hit my lord on shield bearers unit so I couldn't oath stone him (Army BSB as a flank unit to hammerer which pursued away (Mistake #1 that game).

But I will do so next time. Thanks for all the advice guys.

#19 queek

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 03:10 PM

The Detachment support and counter charges use all the normal charge rules (with the exception of the zone rule in certain circumstances) so if there's no room to fit, they can't declare it!

(Cochrane's Charging Rule! laugh.gif )

#20 Thunderer

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 04:45 PM

So my line of doom will work, which is what I recall from browsing through the Empire book. I'll just deploy two deep and not pursue. Keep and OG on the end to deter flank/rear attacks and kill them all.

Many thanks again Queek you are a valuable asset here.




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